Topic for possible discussion

[Carrie]

I posted this on face book but didn't get much response. Just one person
saying she'd have to ask her Pastor about it, and to her, the idea we are
all born in sinner (and thus sinnners, unless "saved") felt right and she
wasn't taking any chances. Of course, I have come to believe in what ACIM
says, which feels right to me. I don't see Jesus as seeing anyone as
automatically a sinner, unless "saved", somehow him being murdered was
involved in this. I looked online but mainly found what other people SAY
Jesus said or meant about it. I'd like to see direct quotes by Jesus (though
translations have probably messed it up beyond recognition at this point
anyway) saying "you are all sinners and need to be saved"
I know, face book isn't supposed to be for long in depth discussions, but
more for saying "hi, I just had breakfast, and going to the beach today"
etc.
I really would like to see quotes by Jesus (from the bible) where he says
we are all sinners, and somehow need to be saved, which implies him dying to
bring this about. And, it seems kind of sad in a way, people believe they
are sinners, and everyone else is (automatically) unless they somehow
believe in and agree to (and push on others?) this "saved by the blood of
Christ" etc thing. I guess we all have our own beliefs (and idea of Jesus)
but this is NOT how I like to think he is or would be.
-----------------------------------------------------------
What I wrote:
Have been debating bringing this up, I know FB isn't for deep topics,
especially religion/poiltics, but I don't go on any other groups right now.
And if I did, I'd probably be seen as trying to start trouble LOL I just
think about stuff and wonder... last night I came across (TV) Michelle
Bachmann giving a commencement speach at a college in VA. Not sure, maybe
it's a "Christian" college. She was going on and on about how she had wanted
to be president so she could stop the moral downfall of the USA, and then
got onto the topic of Jesus and everyone is a sinner... she said (quoted
from memory) a lot of preachers now are afraid to openly talk about this,
how everyone is a sinner and needs to be saved, because they might "offend"
some, and people who feel offended wouldn't then go to their church which is
what they need (to be saved). Aside from this seeming kind of manipulative
(the churches having to be a certain ware to lure people in) I thought "did
Jesus actually say everyone is a sinner and needs to be saved?" I don't
study the bible, but to me, Jesus said "love everyone" and "don't judge".
Wouldn't deciding someone is a sinner (for whatever reason, even just
because of being BORN) be judging? I looked in Google, to find "actual
quotes by Jesus saying we are all sinners and need to be saved" Of course,
the bible is translated and retranslated, and different countries and
generations have slanted this in ways. None of us (now) have heard Jesus
actually SAY anything, except maybe in personal Guidance. I found a lot of
websites where people were saying WHAT Jesus meant, but no actual quotes
where Jesus said "you are all sinnners" and "you need to be saved". This
morning I found this, which is going by a translation of the word
"righteous" and the idea the opposite of this is "sinner". It still seems
like personal interpretation of it.
http://www.geocities.com/m_ghounem/jsay.html
I don't follow politics closely but think Michelle Backmann is the one who
is very "judgemental" (what does Jesus say about this?) about being gay and
her husbad believes in "pray away the gay". I didn't go to the college and
could change the channel, but from the little I heard, I don't know why
anyone, graduating from college in the year 2012 into the world (the way it
currently is) would get anything positive and uplifting fro what she was
saying (making it into overall, absolute TRUTH)
Just what the world needs now, more judgement and telling others how and
what they should be, and backing it up with "Jesus".See More
Is everyone a sinner, What does Jesus Say ?
www.geocities.com
We see in the Gospel, the word *righteous* means pure and sinless. As the
two words *righteous* and 'sinner' are always opposite each other in the New
Testament.
-------------------------------------------------------

I should say, this is just for the point of discussion, I noticed how
Bachmann was stating things in her speech as FACT, and who can do this, when
it comes to Jesus? All it can be is beilef or interpretation, like using
Jesus to say gay peo...ple are sinners in need of saving, and people have to
be tricked/lured into church to be saved "for their own good". Twisting
things around and disregarding all that Jesus actually IS QUOTED as saying,
clear and direct. Which would have made a more positive and uplifting talk
to new college grads. Then "the world is full of sinners, go out and tell
them this and try and change the" LOL I know, she didn't say in those words,
so I'm interpreting HER,in return.
---------------------------------------------------
One response:
I'm going to have to defer to Pastor Tony on this one - my faith tells me
that unless I have become Born Again - I am still a sinner - this article
seems to imply that that is not true
----------------------------------------------------
My response:
I was really just wondering what actual quotes (as much as the bible has
direct quotes) by Jesus, says 'we are all sinners" and have to be saved. To
me, this implies judging (even oneself) and Jesus was pretty clear about
that and not to do it. Who can judge anyone else, even ourselves as being a
sinner? But, maybe Paster Tony knows quotes (by Jesus) that actually say
this... to me, it doesn't seem like something Jesus would say, think or
believe. That we are all "sinners" and need to be saved. But then I don't
understand the part about Jesus being murdered as somehow dying for our
sins, and even at that, the sins are not GONE (to this day) and something
else has to be done (accepting Jesus and believing this story) to change it.
I h ave nothing against Jesus, i believe he was (and is) a great teacher,
and look at all that resulted from his one life (in form) just don't see
where he, personally, said this about us being sinners and need to be saved.
I get more of an idea he was into love, peace and seeing everyone as
"perfect" (Children of God). He even said it wasn't him, it was "the power
of the Father through him" and what he did, anyone could do. Anything is
possible, if you believe. And, apparently he believed. Maybe Paster Tony
knows of the quotes by Jesus saying we are sinners? Of course, there have
been so many translations and interpretations over so many years (centuries)
who knows what was realy said. And, like you say, whatever feels right to
each person. Not even implying how anyone else believes and feels good/right
about isn't. Since no one really knows (100% sure) what nyone believes is
just as right and okay as anyone else
------------------------------------------------------

[Carrie]

Post by Carrie
I posted this on face book but didn't get much response. Just one person
saying she'd have to ask her Pastor about it, and to her, the idea we are
all born in sinner (and thus sinnners, unless "saved") felt right and she
wasn't taking any chances. Of course, I have come to believe in what ACIM
says, which feels right to me. I don't see Jesus as seeing anyone as
automatically a sinner, unless "saved", somehow him being murdered was
involved in this. I looked online but mainly found what other people SAY
Jesus said or meant about it. I'd like to see direct quotes by Jesus
(though translations have probably messed it up beyond recognition at this
point anyway) saying "you are all sinners and need to be saved"
I know, face book isn't supposed to be for long in depth discussions, but
more for saying "hi, I just had breakfast, and going to the beach today"
etc.
I really would like to see quotes by Jesus (from the bible) where he says
we are all sinners, and somehow need to be saved, which implies him dying
to bring this about. And, it seems kind of sad in a way, people believe
they are sinners, and everyone else is (automatically) unless they somehow
believe in and agree to (and push on others?) this "saved by the blood of
Christ" etc thing. I guess we all have our own beliefs (and idea of Jesus)
but this is NOT how I like to think he is or would be.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have been debating bringing this up, I know FB isn't for deep topics,
especially religion/poiltics, but I don't go on any other groups right
now. And if I did, I'd probably be seen as trying to start trouble LOL I
just think about stuff and wonder... last night I came across (TV)
Michelle Bachmann giving a commencement speach at a college in VA. Not
sure, maybe it's a "Christian" college. She was going on and on about how
she had wanted to be president so she could stop the moral downfall of the
USA, and then got onto the topic of Jesus and everyone is a sinner... she
said (quoted from memory) a lot of preachers now are afraid to openly talk
about this, how everyone is a sinner and needs to be saved, because they
might "offend" some, and people who feel offended wouldn't then go to
their church which is what they need (to be saved). Aside from this
seeming kind of manipulative (the churches having to be a certain ware to
lure people in) I thought "did Jesus actually say everyone is a sinner and
needs to be saved?" I don't study the bible, but to me, Jesus said "love
everyone" and "don't judge". Wouldn't deciding someone is a sinner (for
whatever reason, even just because of being BORN) be judging? I looked in
Google, to find "actual quotes by Jesus saying we are all sinners and need
to be saved" Of course, the bible is translated and retranslated, and
different countries and generations have slanted this in ways. None of us
(now) have heard Jesus actually SAY anything, except maybe in personal
Guidance. I found a lot of websites where people were saying WHAT Jesus
meant, but no actual quotes where Jesus said "you are all sinnners" and
"you need to be saved". This morning I found this, which is going by a
translation of the word "righteous" and the idea the opposite of this is
"sinner". It still seems like personal interpretation of it.
http://www.geocities.com/m_ghounem/jsay.html
I don't follow politics closely but think Michelle Backmann is the one who
is very "judgemental" (what does Jesus say about this?) about being gay
and her husbad believes in "pray away the gay". I didn't go to the college
and could change the channel, but from the little I heard, I don't know
why anyone, graduating from college in the year 2012 into the world (the
way it currently is) would get anything positive and uplifting fro what
she was saying (making it into overall, absolute TRUTH)
Just what the world needs now, more judgement and telling others how and
what they should be, and backing it up with "Jesus".See More
Is everyone a sinner, What does Jesus Say ?
www.geocities.com
We see in the Gospel, the word *righteous* means pure and sinless. As the
two words *righteous* and 'sinner' are always opposite each other in the
New Testament.
-------------------------------------------------------
I should say, this is just for the point of discussion, I noticed how
Bachmann was stating things in her speech as FACT, and who can do this,
when it comes to Jesus? All it can be is beilef or interpretation, like
using Jesus to say gay peo...ple are sinners in need of saving, and people
have to be tricked/lured into church to be saved "for their own good".
Twisting things around and disregarding all that Jesus actually IS QUOTED
as saying, clear and direct. Which would have made a more positive and
uplifting talk to new college grads. Then "the world is full of sinners,
go out and tell them this and try and change the" LOL I know, she didn't
say in those words, so I'm interpreting HER,in return.
---------------------------------------------------
I'm going to have to defer to Pastor Tony on this one - my faith tells me
that unless I have become Born Again - I am still a sinner - this article
seems to imply that that is not true
----------------------------------------------------
I was really just wondering what actual quotes (as much as the bible has
direct quotes) by Jesus, says 'we are all sinners" and have to be saved.
To me, this implies judging (even oneself) and Jesus was pretty clear
about that and not to do it. Who can judge anyone else, even ourselves as
being a sinner? But, maybe Paster Tony knows quotes (by Jesus) that
actually say this... to me, it doesn't seem like something Jesus would
say, think or believe. That we are all "sinners" and need to be saved. But
then I don't understand the part about Jesus being murdered as somehow
dying for our sins, and even at that, the sins are not GONE (to this day)
and something else has to be done (accepting Jesus and believing this
story) to change it. I h ave nothing against Jesus, i believe he was (and
is) a great teacher, and look at all that resulted from his one life (in
form) just don't see where he, personally, said this about us being
sinners and need to be saved. I get more of an idea he was into love,
peace and seeing everyone as "perfect" (Children of God). He even said it
wasn't him, it was "the power of the Father through him" and what he did,
anyone could do. Anything is possible, if you believe. And, apparently he
believed. Maybe Paster Tony knows of the quotes by Jesus saying we are
sinners? Of course, there have been so many translations and
interpretations over so many years (centuries) who knows what was realy
said. And, like you say, whatever feels right to each person. Not even
implying how anyone else believes and feels good/right about isn't. Since
no one really knows (100% sure) what nyone believes is just as right and
okay as anyone else
------------------------------------------------------

This leads to another question (more trying to make sense of the senseless,
for whatever reason LOL) If Jesus was the only "pure" person without sin
because he was supposedly conceived without sex (thus sin) what about those
now conceived from in vitro fertilization, in a DISH and no sex involved?
Seems like they would also not be automatically "sinners".
of couse, I don't believe Jesus said everyone is a sinner and needs to be
saved, and he had to die to bring this about... and even though he died to
save people from sin, they are still sinners, unless they agree with the
Christian Religion and join in it, I guess what I'm trying to make sense of
is how people can believe this and try and push it on others. And how can
someone, like Christine Bachmann give a talk to graduating students, based
on this, and tell them to go out into the world and live it and teach it?
Wouldn't graduating college students be smart enough to look into it, and
see if it made any sense to them, first? She was basically telling them
Jesus said to judge others (as sinners, and gay people, etc) and try and get
rid of all this to make the world into what she seemed to think it should
be. More people going into the world who judge, condemn, hate, create
violence against, and make war with.
I know, this is judging Christine Bachmann and her beliefs, but also
seeing it as a kind of interesting topic in a way. I don't think what's
wrong with the world is people aren't saved, and are gay and some accept
each other as they are, but the people like Bachmann who judge and see evil
and try and "fix" it (with more evil) I konw, the ego world of illusion
isn't made to work. It just works for what it is (ego world of illusion)
projection of thoughts and beliefs of those living in it.
And doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, believes or says, I can make my
own choices, and learnmy own lessons and have chances to practice this.

[John Radgosky]

Post by Carrie
I posted this on face book but didn't get much response. Just one person
saying she'd have to ask her Pastor about it, and to her, the idea we are
all born in sinner (and thus sinnners, unless "saved") felt right and she
wasn't taking any chances.  Of course, I have come to believe in what ACIM
says, which feels right  to me. I don't see Jesus as seeing anyone as
automatically a sinner, unless "saved", somehow him being murdered was
involved in this. I looked online but mainly found what other people SAY
Jesus said or meant about it. I'd like to see direct quotes by Jesus
(though translations have probably messed it up beyond recognition at this
point anyway) saying "you are all sinners and need to be saved"
 I know, face book isn't supposed to be for long in depth discussions, but
more for saying "hi, I just had breakfast, and going to the beach today"
etc.
 I really would like to see quotes by Jesus (from the bible) where he says
we are all sinners, and somehow need to be saved, which implies him dying
to bring this about. And, it seems kind of sad in a way, people believe
they are sinners, and everyone else is (automatically) unless they somehow
believe in and agree to (and push on others?) this "saved by the blood of
Christ" etc thing. I guess we all have our own beliefs (and idea of Jesus)
but this is NOT how I like to think he is or would be.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have been debating bringing this up, I know FB isn't for deep topics,
especially religion/poiltics, but I don't go on any other groups right
now. And if I did, I'd probably be seen as trying to start trouble LOL I
just think about stuff and wonder... last night I came across (TV)
Michelle Bachmann giving a commencement speach at a college in VA. Not
sure, maybe it's a "Christian" college. She was going on and on about how
she had wanted to be president so she could stop the moral downfall of the
USA, and then got onto the topic of Jesus and everyone is a sinner... she
said (quoted from memory) a lot of preachers now are afraid to openly talk
about this, how everyone is a sinner and needs to be saved, because they
might "offend" some, and people who feel offended wouldn't then go to
their church which is what they need (to be saved). Aside from this
seeming kind of manipulative (the churches having to be a certain ware to
lure people in) I thought "did Jesus actually say everyone is a sinner and
needs to be saved?" I don't study the bible, but to me, Jesus said "love
everyone" and "don't judge". Wouldn't deciding someone is a sinner (for
whatever reason, even just because of being BORN) be judging? I looked in
Google, to find "actual quotes by Jesus saying we are all sinners and need
to be saved" Of course, the bible is translated and retranslated, and
different countries and generations have slanted this in ways. None of us
(now) have heard Jesus actually SAY anything, except maybe in personal
Guidance. I found a lot of websites where people were saying WHAT Jesus
meant, but no actual quotes where Jesus said "you are all sinnners" and
"you need to be saved". This morning I found this, which is going by a
translation of the word "righteous" and the idea the opposite of this is
"sinner". It still seems like personal interpretation of it.
http://www.geocities.com/m_ghounem/jsay.html
I don't follow politics closely but think Michelle Backmann is the one who
is very "judgemental" (what does Jesus say about this?) about being gay
and her husbad believes in "pray away the gay". I didn't go to the college
and could change the channel, but from the little I heard, I don't know
why anyone, graduating from college in the year 2012 into the world (the
way it currently is) would get anything positive and uplifting fro what
she was saying (making it into overall, absolute TRUTH)
Just what the world needs now, more judgement and telling others how and
what they should be, and backing it up with "Jesus".See More
Is everyone a sinner, What does Jesus Say ?
www.geocities.com
We see in the Gospel, the word *righteous* means pure and sinless. As the
two words *righteous* and 'sinner' are always opposite each other in the
New Testament.
    -------------------------------------------------------
I should say, this is just for the point of discussion, I noticed how
Bachmann was stating things in her speech as FACT, and who can do this,
when it comes to Jesus? All it can be is beilef or interpretation, like
using Jesus to say gay peo...ple are sinners in need of saving, and people
have to be tricked/lured into church to be saved "for their own good".
Twisting things around and disregarding all that Jesus actually IS QUOTED
as saying, clear and direct. Which would have made a more positive and
uplifting talk to new college grads. Then "the world is full of sinners,
go out and tell them this and try and change the" LOL I know, she didn't
say in those words, so I'm interpreting HER,in return.
---------------------------------------------------
I'm going to have to defer to Pastor Tony on this one - my faith tells me
that unless I have become Born Again - I am still a sinner - this article
seems to imply that that is not true
----------------------------------------------------
I was really just wondering what actual quotes (as much as the bible has
direct quotes) by Jesus, says 'we are all sinners" and have to be saved.
To me, this implies judging (even oneself) and Jesus was pretty clear
about that and not to do it. Who can judge anyone else, even ourselves as
being a sinner? But, maybe Paster Tony knows quotes (by Jesus) that
actually say this... to me, it doesn't seem like something Jesus would
say, think or believe. That we are all "sinners" and need to be saved. But
then I don't understand the part about Jesus being murdered as somehow
dying for our sins, and even at that, the sins are not GONE (to this day)
and something else has to be done (accepting Jesus and believing this
story) to change it. I h ave nothing against Jesus, i believe he was (and
is) a great teacher, and look at all that resulted from his one life (in
form) just don't see where he, personally, said this about us being
sinners and need to be saved. I get more of an idea he was into love,
peace and seeing everyone as "perfect" (Children of God). He even said it
wasn't him, it was "the power of the Father through him" and what he did,
anyone could do. Anything is possible, if you believe. And, apparently he
believed. Maybe Paster Tony knows of the quotes by Jesus saying we are
sinners? Of course, there have been so many translations and
interpretations over so many years (centuries) who knows what was realy
said. And, like you say, whatever feels right to each person. Not even
implying how anyone else believes and feels good/right about isn't. Since
no one really knows (100% sure) what nyone believes is just as right and
okay as anyone else
------------------------------------------------------

 This leads to another question (more trying to make sense of the senseless,
for whatever reason LOL)  If Jesus was the only "pure" person without sin
because he was supposedly conceived without sex (thus sin) what about those
now conceived from in vitro fertilization, in a DISH and no sex involved?
Seems like they would also not be automatically "sinners".
   of couse, I don't believe Jesus said everyone is a sinner and needs to be
saved, and he had to die to bring this about... and even  though he died to
save people from sin, they are still sinners, unless they agree with the
Christian Religion and join in it, I guess what I'm trying to make sense of
is how people can believe this and try and push it on others.  And how can
someone, like Christine Bachmann give a talk to graduating students, based
on this, and tell them to go out into the world and live it and teach it?
Wouldn't graduating college students be smart enough to look into it, and
see if it made any sense to them, first?  She was basically telling them
Jesus said to judge others (as sinners, and gay people, etc) and try and get
rid of all this to make the world into what she seemed to think it should
be. More people going into the world who judge, condemn, hate, create
violence against, and make war with.
    I know, this is judging Christine Bachmann and her beliefs, but also
seeing it as a kind of interesting topic in a way.  I don't think what's
wrong with the world is people aren't saved, and are gay and some accept
each other as they are, but the people like Bachmann who judge and see evil
and try and "fix" it (with more evil)  I konw, the ego world of illusion
isn't made to work. It just works for what it is (ego world of illusion)
projection of thoughts and beliefs of those living in it.
 And doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, believes or says, I can make my
own choices, and learnmy own lessons and have chances to practice this.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

From JCIM:

"No-one is "punished" for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners."

[Carrie]

Post by Carrie

Post by Carrie
I posted this on face book but didn't get much response. Just one person
saying she'd have to ask her Pastor about it, and to her, the idea we are
all born in sinner (and thus sinnners, unless "saved") felt right and she
wasn't taking any chances. Of course, I have come to believe in what
ACIM
says, which feels right to me. I don't see Jesus as seeing anyone as
automatically a sinner, unless "saved", somehow him being murdered was
involved in this. I looked online but mainly found what other people SAY
Jesus said or meant about it. I'd like to see direct quotes by Jesus
(though translations have probably messed it up beyond recognition at this
point anyway) saying "you are all sinners and need to be saved"
I know, face book isn't supposed to be for long in depth discussions, but
more for saying "hi, I just had breakfast, and going to the beach today"
etc.
I really would like to see quotes by Jesus (from the bible) where he says
we are all sinners, and somehow need to be saved, which implies him dying
to bring this about. And, it seems kind of sad in a way, people believe
they are sinners, and everyone else is (automatically) unless they somehow
believe in and agree to (and push on others?) this "saved by the blood of
Christ" etc thing. I guess we all have our own beliefs (and idea of Jesus)
but this is NOT how I like to think he is or would be.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Have been debating bringing this up, I know FB isn't for deep topics,
especially religion/poiltics, but I don't go on any other groups right
now. And if I did, I'd probably be seen as trying to start trouble LOL I
just think about stuff and wonder... last night I came across (TV)
Michelle Bachmann giving a commencement speach at a college in VA. Not
sure, maybe it's a "Christian" college. She was going on and on about how
she had wanted to be president so she could stop the moral downfall of the
USA, and then got onto the topic of Jesus and everyone is a sinner... she
said (quoted from memory) a lot of preachers now are afraid to openly talk
about this, how everyone is a sinner and needs to be saved, because they
might "offend" some, and people who feel offended wouldn't then go to
their church which is what they need (to be saved). Aside from this
seeming kind of manipulative (the churches having to be a certain ware to
lure people in) I thought "did Jesus actually say everyone is a sinner and
needs to be saved?" I don't study the bible, but to me, Jesus said "love
everyone" and "don't judge". Wouldn't deciding someone is a sinner (for
whatever reason, even just because of being BORN) be judging? I looked in
Google, to find "actual quotes by Jesus saying we are all sinners and need
to be saved" Of course, the bible is translated and retranslated, and
different countries and generations have slanted this in ways. None of us
(now) have heard Jesus actually SAY anything, except maybe in personal
Guidance. I found a lot of websites where people were saying WHAT Jesus
meant, but no actual quotes where Jesus said "you are all sinnners" and
"you need to be saved". This morning I found this, which is going by a
translation of the word "righteous" and the idea the opposite of this is
"sinner". It still seems like personal interpretation of it.
http://www.geocities.com/m_ghounem/jsay.html
I don't follow politics closely but think Michelle Backmann is the one who
is very "judgemental" (what does Jesus say about this?) about being gay
and her husbad believes in "pray away the gay". I didn't go to the college
and could change the channel, but from the little I heard, I don't know
why anyone, graduating from college in the year 2012 into the world (the
way it currently is) would get anything positive and uplifting fro what
she was saying (making it into overall, absolute TRUTH)
Just what the world needs now, more judgement and telling others how and
what they should be, and backing it up with "Jesus".See More
Is everyone a sinner, What does Jesus Say ?
www.geocities.com
We see in the Gospel, the word *righteous* means pure and sinless. As the
two words *righteous* and 'sinner' are always opposite each other in the
New Testament.
-------------------------------------------------------
I should say, this is just for the point of discussion, I noticed how
Bachmann was stating things in her speech as FACT, and who can do this,
when it comes to Jesus? All it can be is beilef or interpretation, like
using Jesus to say gay peo...ple are sinners in need of saving, and people
have to be tricked/lured into church to be saved "for their own good".
Twisting things around and disregarding all that Jesus actually IS QUOTED
as saying, clear and direct. Which would have made a more positive and
uplifting talk to new college grads. Then "the world is full of sinners,
go out and tell them this and try and change the" LOL I know, she didn't
say in those words, so I'm interpreting HER,in return.
---------------------------------------------------
I'm going to have to defer to Pastor Tony on this one - my faith tells me
that unless I have become Born Again - I am still a sinner - this article
seems to imply that that is not true
----------------------------------------------------
I was really just wondering what actual quotes (as much as the bible has
direct quotes) by Jesus, says 'we are all sinners" and have to be saved.
To me, this implies judging (even oneself) and Jesus was pretty clear
about that and not to do it. Who can judge anyone else, even ourselves as
being a sinner? But, maybe Paster Tony knows quotes (by Jesus) that
actually say this... to me, it doesn't seem like something Jesus would
say, think or believe. That we are all "sinners" and need to be saved. But
then I don't understand the part about Jesus being murdered as somehow
dying for our sins, and even at that, the sins are not GONE (to this day)
and something else has to be done (accepting Jesus and believing this
story) to change it. I h ave nothing against Jesus, i believe he was (and
is) a great teacher, and look at all that resulted from his one life (in
form) just don't see where he, personally, said this about us being
sinners and need to be saved. I get more of an idea he was into love,
peace and seeing everyone as "perfect" (Children of God). He even said it
wasn't him, it was "the power of the Father through him" and what he did,
anyone could do. Anything is possible, if you believe. And, apparently he
believed. Maybe Paster Tony knows of the quotes by Jesus saying we are
sinners? Of course, there have been so many translations and
interpretations over so many years (centuries) who knows what was realy
said. And, like you say, whatever feels right to each person. Not even
implying how anyone else believes and feels good/right about isn't. Since
no one really knows (100% sure) what nyone believes is just as right and
okay as anyone else
------------------------------------------------------

This leads to another question (more trying to make sense of the senseless,
for whatever reason LOL) If Jesus was the only "pure" person without sin
because he was supposedly conceived without sex (thus sin) what about those
now conceived from in vitro fertilization, in a DISH and no sex involved?
Seems like they would also not be automatically "sinners".
of couse, I don't believe Jesus said everyone is a sinner and needs to be
saved, and he had to die to bring this about... and even though he died to
save people from sin, they are still sinners, unless they agree with the
Christian Religion and join in it, I guess what I'm trying to make sense of
is how people can believe this and try and push it on others. And how can
someone, like Christine Bachmann give a talk to graduating students, based
on this, and tell them to go out into the world and live it and teach it?
Wouldn't graduating college students be smart enough to look into it, and
see if it made any sense to them, first? She was basically telling them
Jesus said to judge others (as sinners, and gay people, etc) and try and get
rid of all this to make the world into what she seemed to think it should
be. More people going into the world who judge, condemn, hate, create
violence against, and make war with.
I know, this is judging Christine Bachmann and her beliefs, but also
seeing it as a kind of interesting topic in a way. I don't think what's
wrong with the world is people aren't saved, and are gay and some accept
each other as they are, but the people like Bachmann who judge and see evil
and try and "fix" it (with more evil) I konw, the ego world of illusion
isn't made to work. It just works for what it is (ego world of illusion)
projection of thoughts and beliefs of those living in it.
And doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, believes or says, I can make my
own choices, and learnmy own lessons and have chances to practice this.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

From JCIM:

"No-one is "punished" for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners."

This is what I believe, too. I just heard Christine Bachmann saying
everyone is born a sinner and Jesus said this and everyone had to be saved.
I've spent 2 days looking this up and asking people (who are Christians, one
even goes to weekly bible study) where does Jesus say everyone is a sinner,
and needs to be "saved"? There are no answers, or I guess no answer is still
an answer. And it really doesn't matter what anyone else believes, I just
have to be aware of my own mind and that's more than a full time job.
I also got onto a few other questions that no one could answer, like, if
being born in sin is from sex being sinful what about in vitro
fertilization, where there is no sex involved?
The person who goes to bible study said she would ask the questions to
her pastor, but... he is on vacation. She said she just believes she is (or
was) a sinner and had to be "saved". I guess if that's what she believes,
that's what is true for her.
I did realize and remember though this topic, I don't believe in
"sin". And the Jesus I believe in teaches love, and acceptance, and
forgiveness (of ourselves, when we slip) and, Jesus never said (is quoted as
saying) as far as I know, that he is anything special, that no one else is
the only Son of God (in form)
It would be nice to have discussions on this group again, where we are
fairly free to do this, without being censored and "moderated". Giving the
chance to moderate ourselves...and learn our own lessons in our own way. I
also am aware that sometimes I slip into feeling judgemental of people I see
as being judgemental LOL
At each moment we can start again.

[Deborah]

On Wed, 30 May 2012 14:14:29 -0700 (PDT), John Radgosky

Post by John Radgosky
"No-one is "punished" for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners."

Yeah, but it is pretty obvious, both in the Bible and in ACIM, that
Jesus is suggesting we change allegiances. We have allied ourselves
with the wrong voice and do not know that we are Sons of God. No
punishment is necessary because our alliance with the wrong voice IS
hell. What Jesus advocates is for us to liberate ourselves by
listening to the Voice for God, instead. To the extent that we are
unable to do this by ourselves, we do need to be helped, or "saved".
But the worst that can happen if we fail is we're stuck with the same
old, same old.

BTW, Carrie, the bit about homosexuality being perverse isn't in the
New Testament. It's in what Christians call the Old Testament which
is regarded as the Word of God, by some denominations, as surely as
the New Testament. This makes no sense to me, because Jesus clearly
intended to override all of the hundreds of religious laws then in
existence with the simple dictum "Love one another, as I have loved
you." Did Christians not get that message?

[Carrie]

Post by Deborah
On Wed, 30 May 2012 14:14:29 -0700 (PDT), John Radgosky

Post by John Radgosky
"No-one is "punished" for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners."

Yeah, but it is pretty obvious, both in the Bible and in ACIM, that
Jesus is suggesting we change allegiances. We have allied ourselves
with the wrong voice and do not know that we are Sons of God. No
punishment is necessary because our alliance with the wrong voice IS
hell. What Jesus advocates is for us to liberate ourselves by
listening to the Voice for God, instead. To the extent that we are
unable to do this by ourselves, we do need to be helped, or "saved".
But the worst that can happen if we fail is we're stuck with the same
old, same old.
BTW, Carrie, the bit about homosexuality being perverse isn't in the
New Testament. It's in what Christians call the Old Testament which
is regarded as the Word of God, by some denominations, as surely as
the New Testament. This makes no sense to me, because Jesus clearly
intended to override all of the hundreds of religious laws then in
existence with the simple dictum "Love one another, as I have loved
you." Did Christians not get that message?

I know what I believe, and what ACIM teaches. I was just trying to make
sense of what Christians believe and (once again) gave up. I don't think
Jesus ever taught anything like what was made out of what we know of him
(from the New Testament). Jesus only taught love, acceptance, and we are all
One (and One with God) What he "did" anyone could do. Which means loving and
accepting those who twist this into something else....
I was just kind of curious if there were actual bible quotes where Jesus
said everyone (not saved) is a sinner, and apparently there aren't. Also,
interesting that
"Christians" (who apparently believe they are followers of Christ?) don't
seem to care about this. They just say it and believe it anyway.

[Tim923]

Is this group dead. I haven't visited in a long time and don't see much
activity.

I think from my teachings is:
we are all sons of god
nothing is separate from it's source
nothing is alien to itself
The belief in sin is simply a mistake in who we think we are.

[Carrie]

Post by Tim923
Is this group dead. I haven't visited in a long time and don't see much
activity.
we are all sons of god
nothing is separate from it's source
nothing is alien to itself
The belief in sin is simply a mistake in who we think we are.

Seems like a lot have moved to more private discussion groups, where they
are moderated and posts can be deleted and people banned if they don't agree
with the group "owners". Robin (Bodhi) seems to have a few, or maybe it
seems like a few because the names of them change. I tend to say what I
honestly think, feel and believe and don't do good with "modertion" LOL
It would be good to have more discussions on here, but maybe hard to do,
with freedom and not being able to control what others say. I think on the
moderated groups, people who want control get it by keeping in good with the
group owner./moderator and thus get what they feel they need in an indirect
way.
When I was first online someone told me this, she had it all figured out,
the way to get along on groups and discussion boards was to say what the
group owner/moderator wanted to hear and like/dislike the perople the
owner/moderator did.
Sounds sort of like "life" (LOL)