Everything brings good [iambic pentameter]

[Lee Flynn]

"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.

Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.

Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"

~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

[Sidney Lambe]

On talk.religion.course-miracle, Lee Flynn <***@att.net> wrote:
[delete]

Post by Lee Flynn
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

You already posted this in its original form.

It was mostly garbage then, and obviously still
is in this form.

[Deborah]

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.

The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.

Deborah

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.

God is always with us, but not as an active parent that intervenes
in physical reality. God has given us the ability to create our own
realities and leaves us to it.

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Sidney Lambe

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.

God is always with us, but not as an active parent that intervenes
in physical reality. God has given us the ability to create our own
realities and leaves us to it.

"Deborah" didn't reply to me because religious fanatics will
not entertain the idea that their pet book doesn't contain 100%
Truth.

This is the same reason that "Lee Flynn" never replies to me.

Their minds are closed. They don't want to think, they want
to parrot.

Go ahead and read the ACIM urtext. I have. Three times:

http://courseinmiracles.com/urtext/

Then read "The Nature of Personal Reality" by Jane Roberts.

[Carrie]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

God is...

[Lee Flynn]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,

"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."

This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.

I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.

I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
to touch on you in any way":

"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.

He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"

~ [W-pI.151.10-11]

What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible

"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135

The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,

".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.

Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**

~ [W-pI.158.6-7]

Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.

~ Lee

[Deborah]

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."
This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.
I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.

Yes, most people would need you to explain WHY they ought to regard it
as "needless self-deception". And one of the things the course is
telling you not to explain it with is something like "Well, you may
not be able to see God's Perfect Plan in this now, but in the future
you will." (One of George's favourite rationalizations, IIRC).

Post by Lee Flynn
I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.

Pretty lousy place to place one's faith, to be sure.

Post by Lee Flynn
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.

Let us not forget that when it comes to vision "it is not the body's
eyes that see." And it is not the material world that is seen with
vision.

Post by Lee Flynn
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.

Which is? (But it's God we're supposed to look to for that answer).

Post by Lee Flynn
He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"

I wonder why it says the love BEYOND the hate, but not the constancy
BEYOND the change, the pure BEYOND the sin. Only thing I can think is
- whelp, then it wouldn't be iambic parameter.

But "overlooking" is what forgiveness does. Overlooking is where the
sight of the body's eyes ends and vision begins, imo.

Post by Lee Flynn
~ [W-pI.151.10-11]
What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible
"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135

It contradicts the part at the top that says we aren't asked to
sacrifice NOW, ('I may not be able see any good purpose in this now
but in the future I Will").

Post by Lee Flynn
The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,
".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.
Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**

Yes, looking beyond. But not in the future. Right now. Right now
the Face of Christ is what Vision sees.

I just don't see that vision showing us a material world..

Post by Lee Flynn
~ [W-pI.158.6-7]
Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.

As well as I am able. And that's quite well. Hope you had fun at the
conference.

Deborah

[Lee Flynn]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."
This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.
I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.

Yes, most people would need you to explain WHY they ought to regard it
as "needless self-deception". And one of the things the course is
telling you not to explain it with is something like "Well, you may
not be able to see God's Perfect Plan in this now, but in the future
you will." (One of George's favourite rationalizations, IIRC).

Post by Lee Flynn
I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.

Pretty lousy place to place one's faith, to be sure.

Each is a mistakenly justified reaction to events that I believe
to be UN-fortunate. I'm being told that I have 'faith' in that
estimation and reaction, and could instead place my faith in
the Good that I'm told always inheres in unfolding events.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.

Let us not forget that when it comes to vision "it is not the body's
eyes that see." And it is not the material world that is seen with
vision.

The "body's eyes" mistake what they see of the 'material world',
but vision provides the light of understanding that grasps its
nature as pristinely innocent venue for the holy enterprise of
this worldly life.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.

Which is? (But it's God we're supposed to look to for that answer).

; ) Well then, I'll certainly refrain.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"

I wonder why it says the love BEYOND the hate, but not the constancy
BEYOND the change, the pure BEYOND the sin. Only thing I can think is
- whelp, then it wouldn't be iambic parameter.

lol.

What is the difference in your phrases from what's
written, btw? Do they have a different meaning to you?

Post by Deborah
But "overlooking" is what forgiveness does. Overlooking is where the
sight of the body's eyes ends and vision begins, imo.

Agreed. But if you study what is meant by "overlooking"
I think you'll find that it refers to relinquishing faith in
how one judges all things, in order that vision be able to
retranslate all things in terms of innocence. I'm not told
to merely 'overlook' what I continue to believe genuinely
sucks.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
~ [W-pI.151.10-11]
What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible
"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135

It contradicts the part at the top that says we aren't asked to
sacrifice NOW, ('I may not be able see any good purpose in this now
but in the future I Will").

I understand that part as suggesting that we unnecessarily
insist on time between what appears as disaster, and the
point at which we grant that it was for the best. I'm being
admonished to eliminate the interval of despair and embrace
the good that I've learned will unfold in the future NOW.

I'm told that God's Good is the present Cause in all that
happens, and that I can accept its effect in the present
--despite calamitous appearance.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,
".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.
Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**

Yes, looking beyond. But not in the future. Right now. Right now
the Face of Christ is what Vision sees.
I just don't see that vision showing us a material world..

And I can't imagine that vision would not retranslate what
I mistakenly understand of the 'material world' -- as though
alien to my nature, my thoughts, and my best interests --
and cast its beneficent light and blessing on "every
circumstance, all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees."

Vision profoundly retranslates all that it beholds, in my
experience, showing that the thought system of ego
was the only basis by which I had cherished judgment
against any person, place, event or circumstance -- or
ever would.

I must loose the world from what I believe about it, to
allow that it be shown in light of understanding.

Vision looks beyond what the mind had seen as the form
of the material world, and sees instead a holy venue for
its creative function of extending love, unfolding across
its mind in thought, without intervals of unholiness framed
in what it had beheld as misfortune or disaster.

It's a challenging notion, I agree. But it is what the Course
describes as the truth of the matter, in my opinion and
experience.

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
~ [W-pI.158.6-7]
Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.

As well as I am able. And that's quite well.

That's great to hear!

Post by Deborah
Hope you had fun at the conference.

First ACIM conference after all these years. It was ok, but
may be my last, tbh.

~ Lee

Post by Deborah
Deborah

[Deborah]

Post by Lee Flynn
Vision profoundly retranslates all that it beholds, in my
experience, showing that the thought system of ego
was the only basis by which I had cherished judgment
against any person, place, event or circumstance -- or
ever would.

In the past week there have been a couple of events that it's pretty
hard to retranslate out of disaster's form. Wildfires that destroyed
a third of the town of Slave Lake in Northern Alberta and tornados
that hit Missourri. I do not think one needs to make any judgments
about the people who were impacted, nor believe that God did this to
them, to see these events as disasters. But to believe that God did
this and it is good is...well...twisted. I can not believe this is
what ACIM teaches. There has to be another way to understand the
course.

What does "tbh" mean?

Deborah

[Lee Flynn]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
Vision profoundly retranslates all that it beholds, in my
experience, showing that the thought system of ego
was the only basis by which I had cherished judgment
against any person, place, event or circumstance -- or
ever would.

In the past week there have been a couple of events that it's pretty
hard to retranslate out of disaster's form. Wildfires that destroyed
a third of the town of Slave Lake in Northern Alberta and tornados
that hit Missourri. I do not think one needs to make any judgments
about the people who were impacted, nor believe that God did this to
them, to see these events as disasters. But to believe that God did
this and it is good is...well...twisted. I can not believe this is
what ACIM teaches. There has to be another way to understand the
course.

I can know that certain events bring suffering and despair to others,
and can even continue to regard those events as 'disastrous', while
allowing that the Course is introducing a mind-set that allows me to
make peace with the world as it is, rather than as I would have it be.
l'm told that the healing of my mind allows me to embrace and
celebrate each successive holy instant, despite all challenges that
arise for me. And despite developments that cause widespread
anguish in others.

If the concept of salvation as used in the Course means anything,
it speaks of my coming to peace with the world on its own terms,
in the present, and not of a way to set my heart on eventual
'departure', as the route to my mind's atonement and the healing
of the separation.

As the Course brings me to a greater awareness of reality, my
relationship with self, other and world is profoundly altered
such that ALL is recognized as God's manifest grace -- with only
my mistaken relationship to everyone and everything having
framed earth and heaven as separate states. My "perfectly
reasonable" assessment of the world as a capricious, alien and
often savage purgatory -- where death, loss and devastation
randomly befall the most innocent and undeserving -- is itself
an artifact of the veil that I have superimposed across the
world that Christ's vision would reveal. In the light of
understanding, I am given to lift the veil that had framed this
holy world -- nowhere less holy than my being -- according
to ego's unwitting distortions. It is by that means that..

... All the threads
of fantasy are gone, and what remains
is unified into a perfect Thought
that offers its perfection everywhere. ~ L 151

Tomorrow's lesson, 151, is a beautiful summation of how
coming to clarity introduces a world cleansed of my ego's
'rational' judgments and alienated orientation. A world
where "All things are echoes of the Voice of God."

....So will you see the <holy> Face of Christ
in everything, and hear in everything
no sound except the echo of God's Voice.

....Such is your Eastertide. And so you lay
the gift of snow-white lilies on the world,
replacing witnesses to sin and death.
*Through your transfiguration is the world
redeemed and joyfully released from guilt.*
Now do we lift our resurrected minds
in gladness and in gratitude to Him
Who has restored our sanity to us.

I know from my experience that there is a perspective from
which every vestige of fear, guilt and sorrow is shown to have
been -- and forever be -- the result of a disoriented and illusory
relationship toward this life and world. In light of that
perspective I can know that no event or circumstance will ever
represent a will alien to my own Inmost wish, and that I
consent at that level of my being -- as do all others -- in what
unfolds across this, my Self's dream of my earthly life. It is
from that perspective that I can allow that every step has indeed
been gently planned by One whose only interest is my highest
good, in complete co-creative choice with my Self.

That's my take, anyway. And I find that it aligns with everything
the Course states about the innocent nature of this life and world,
*as they truly are*. This world is indeed a dream -- a Creation-
dream == transpiring across my holy mind and that of all others
who share it with me, but its *true* nature shares the attributes
given my mind in its creation. And only my 'dark fantasies' and
confusion have imagined this worldly experience a nightmare.

Post by Deborah
What does "tbh" mean?

Well l think it means 'to be honest', but I'm not sure, tbph. ; )

Post by Deborah
Deborah

~ Lee

[Sidney Lambe]

On talk.religion.course-miracle, Lee Flynn <***@att.net> wrote:
[delete]

Subject: Everything brings good [iambic pentameter]

That's not true. Everything works towards a greater good. A
specific act may lead to something very bad indeed in the small
picture.

If a person is pointing a loaded gun at someone's head, and
they pull the trigger, that is going to lead to the person's
death.

These supposed follower's of God really don't like to use the
common sense God gave them...

"The Nature of Personal Realilty" by Jane Roberts is far superior
to ACIM, which is just Fundamental Christianity in a New-Age
disguise.

[Carrie]

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."
This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.
I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.
I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.
He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"
~ [W-pI.151.10-11]
What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible
"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135
The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,
".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.
Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**
~ [W-pI.158.6-7]
Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.
~ Lee

And thanks Lee and Deborah for helping to keep this ng going. I still
haven't given up on it and the potential for sharing and good. Of course,
anything that doesn't look like that could be seen as a chance to remember
and practice.
So, in a way, it's all good.

[Lee Flynn]

Post by Carrie

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."
This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.
I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.
I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.
He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"
~ [W-pI.151.10-11]
What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible
"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135
The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,
".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.
Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**
~ [W-pI.158.6-7]
Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.
~ Lee

And thanks Lee and Deborah for helping to keep this ng going. I
still haven't given up on it and the potential for sharing and good.
Of course, anything that doesn't look like that could be seen as a
chance to remember and practice.
So, in a way, it's all good.

Hi Carrie,

Looks like it's the three of us, for now. ; )

~ Lee

[Carrie]

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Carrie

Post by Lee Flynn

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Hi Deborah,
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance."
This and the rest of the passage seem very clearly to
speak of how I typically resist seeing the good in
what is only mistakenly assigned disaster's "form"
-- by my common sensibilities.
I understand that the implications may be offensive
to those same sensibilities of others -- especially
those experiencing pain, disaster, suffering or loss,
but I'm pretty clear about what the passage actually
does say about every appearance of 'disaster' or
'catastrophe', without exception, being needless
self-deception.
I wonder whether you see the parallels between the
three stanzas above and the following three, from
lesson 151, where he speaks of "all occurrences,
each circumstance, and every happening that seems
"He will remove all faith that you have placed
in pain, disaster, suffering and loss.
He gives you vision which can look beyond
these grim appearances, and can behold
the gentle face of Christ in all of them.
You will no longer doubt that **only good
can come to you who are beloved of God,**
for He will judge all happenings, and teach
the single lesson that they all contain.
He will select the elements in them
which represent the truth, and disregard
those aspects which reflect but idle dreams.
And He will reinterpret **all you see,
and all occurrences, each circumstance,
and every happening that seems to touch
on you in any way** from His one frame
of reference, wholly unified and sure.
**And you will see the love beyond the hate,
the constancy in change, the pure in sin,
and only Heaven's blessing on the world.**"
~ [W-pI.151.10-11]
What does it mean to have placed faith "in pain,
disaster, suffering and loss"? What if their "grim
appearances" are false values that I have assigned,
as part of a mistaken belief that worldly circumstance
is by nature capricious at best, and viciously unjust
at worst. Is it just possible
"that *everything that happens, all events,
past, present and to come,* are gently planned
by One Whose only purpose is your good?" ~ L 135
The instruction is echoed in lesson 158, where I'm told,
".... Our concern is with Christ's vision.
This we can attain.
Christ's vision has one law. It does not look
upon a body, and mistake it for
the Son whom God created. It beholds
a light beyond the body; an idea
beyond what can be touched, a purity
undimmed by errors, pitiful mistakes,
and fearful thoughts of guilt from dreams of sin.
It sees no separation. And it looks
on everyone, **on every circumstance,
all happenings and all events, without
the slightest fading of the light it sees.**
~ [W-pI.158.6-7]
Thanks for the comment Deborah. Hope you're doing
well.
~ Lee

And thanks Lee and Deborah for helping to keep this ng going. I
still haven't given up on it and the potential for sharing and good.
Of course, anything that doesn't look like that could be seen as a
chance to remember and practice.
So, in a way, it's all good.

Hi Carrie,
Looks like it's the three of us, for now. ; )
~ Lee

When two minds (or three) join as one, God is there.
I don't think that's the exact quote, but I like it. I still think this ng
has potential, just the idea there aren't many unmoderated groups now. This
one, we're on our own to learn our own lessons in our own way and time.
Though I suppose having moderators with their egos getting into it, is also
practice.
I remember after around 10 years of ACIM books, lessons, tapes, and all I
thought one day "I'd like to be able to do something with this, at least see
what I've learned and if (how) I can use it". Soon after that I found the
internet LOL

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Imo the misconception is in how one understands
the meaning of the theft George did experience.
You see it as disaster, while he but perceived a
call for help he was prepared to give, and gave.
Love really cannot see disaster, since it only
knows and sees itself as real. Love and its
absence cannot coexist.
- Think of lesson 130:

"It is impossible to see two worlds."

It ends with:

Dismiss temptation easily today
whenever it arises, merely by
remembering the limits on your choice.
The unreal or the real, the false or true
is what you see, and only what you see.
Perception is consistent with your choice,
and hell or Heaven comes to you as one.|

Accept a little part of hell as real,
and you have damned your eyes and cursed your sight,
and what you will behold is hell indeed.
Yet the release to Heaven still remains
within your range of choice, to take the place
of everything that hell would show to you.
All you need say to any part of hell,
whatever form it takes, is simply this:

"It is impossible to see two worlds.
I seek my freedom and deliverance,
and this is not a part of what I want."

[Deborah]

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Imo the misconception is in how one understands
the meaning of the theft George did experience.
You see it as disaster, while he but perceived a
call for help he was prepared to give, and gave.
Love really cannot see disaster, since it only
knows and sees itself as real. Love and its
absence cannot coexist.

Actually, Pieter, I was thinking quite specifically about how George
rationalized Hitler's regime as being part of "God's Perfect Plan". In
that instance (and many others) George was obviously doing the "Well,
much good came out of it" thing. The in-retrospect thing. Whereas
this passage that Lee has rendered into verse is saying "No, the cause
(good) and its effect must be simultaneous and must be *experienced*
as simultaneous."

Deborah

Post by Pieter
"It is impossible to see two worlds."
Dismiss temptation easily today
whenever it arises, merely by
remembering the limits on your choice.
The unreal or the real, the false or true
is what you see, and only what you see.
Perception is consistent with your choice,
and hell or Heaven comes to you as one.|
Accept a little part of hell as real,
and you have damned your eyes and cursed your sight,
and what you will behold is hell indeed.
Yet the release to Heaven still remains
within your range of choice, to take the place
of everything that hell would show to you.
All you need say to any part of hell,
"It is impossible to see two worlds.
I seek my freedom and deliverance,
and this is not a part of what I want."

[Sidney Lambe]

[delete]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Imo the misconception is in how one understands
the meaning of the theft George did experience.
You see it as disaster, while he but perceived a
call for help he was prepared to give, and gave.
Love really cannot see disaster, since it only
knows and sees itself as real. Love and its
absence cannot coexist.

Actually, Pieter, I was thinking quite specifically about how George
rationalized Hitler's regime as being part of "God's Perfect Plan". In
that instance (and many others) George was obviously doing the "Well,
much good came out of it" thing. The in-retrospect thing. Whereas
this passage that Lee has rendered into verse is saying "No, the cause
(good) and its effect must be simultaneous and must be *experienced*
as simultaneous."
Deborah

No, I have no idea what they are talking about. But I sure recognize
religious geek talk, used by elitists (priests and gurus, etc.)
to make the Truth seem to be comprehensible only to advanced beings
like them. <snicker>

If you want to see the actual Truth in plain, everyday English
(or a number of other languages), read "The Nature of Personal
Reality" by Jane Roberts.

The misnamed "A Course in Miracles" is just Fundamental Christianity
in a New-Age disguise. Nasty stuff.

[delete]

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Imo the misconception is in how one understands
the meaning of the theft George did experience.
You see it as disaster, while he but perceived a
call for help he was prepared to give, and gave.
Love really cannot see disaster, since it only
knows and sees itself as real. Love and its
absence cannot coexist.

Actually, Pieter, I was thinking quite specifically about how George
rationalized Hitler's regime as being part of "God's Perfect Plan". In
that instance (and many others) George was obviously doing the "Well,
much good came out of it" thing. The in-retrospect thing. Whereas
this passage that Lee has rendered into verse is saying "No, the cause
(good) and its effect must be simultaneous and must be *experienced*
as simultaneous."
Deborah

Post by Pieter
"It is impossible to see two worlds."
Dismiss temptation easily today
whenever it arises, merely by
remembering the limits on your choice.
The unreal or the real, the false or true
is what you see, and only what you see.
Perception is consistent with your choice,
and hell or Heaven comes to you as one.|
Accept a little part of hell as real,
and you have damned your eyes and cursed your sight,
and what you will behold is hell indeed.
Yet the release to Heaven still remains
within your range of choice, to take the place
of everything that hell would show to you.
All you need say to any part of hell,
"It is impossible to see two worlds.
I seek my freedom and deliverance,
and this is not a part of what I want."

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Lee Flynn
"You have been told that everything brings good
that comes from God. And yet it SEEMS as if
this is not so. Good in disaster's form
is difficult to credit in advance.
Nor is there really SENSE in this idea.
Why SHOULD the good appear in evil's form?
And is it not deception if it does?
Its CAUSE is here, if it appears at all.
Why are not its effects apparent, then?
Why in the future? And you seek to be
content with sighing, and with "reasoning,"
you do not understand it now, but WILL
some day. And THEN its meaning will be clear.
This is NOT reason, for it is unjust,
and clearly hints at punishment until
the time of liberation is at hand.
Given a change of purpose for the good,
there is NO reason for an interval
in which disaster strikes, to be perceived
as good some day, but now in form of pain.
This is a SACRIFICE of now, which COULD
not be the cost the Holy Spirit asks
for what he gave WITHOUT a cost at all.
Yet this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in your mind.
And THIS illusion is but one effect
which it engenders, and one form in which
its outcome is perceived. This interval
in time, when retribution is perceived
to be the form in which the good appears,
is but one aspect of the little space
that lies between you, unforgiven still.
Be not content with future happiness.
It has NO meaning, and is NOT your just
reward. For you have cause for freedom NOW.
What profits freedom in a prisoner's form?
Why SHOULD deliverance be disguised as death?
Delay is senseless, and the "reasoning"
which would maintain effects of PRESENT cause
must be delayed until a FUTURE time
is merely a denial of the fact
that consequence and cause MUST come as one.
Look not to time, but to the little space
between you still, to be delivered FROM.
And do not let it be DISGUISED as time,
and so preserved BECAUSE its form is changed,
and what it IS cannot be recognized.
The Holy Spirit's purpose NOW is yours.
Should not His happiness be yours as well?"
~ Urtext of T-26.VIII.7-9

This is why I wasn't buying George's rationalizations.
The good that comes from God IS God and He is with us always. It's
got nothing to do with time/space, "external circumstances" or
interpretations of same.
Deborah

Imo the misconception is in how one understands
the meaning of the theft George did experience.
You see it as disaster, while he but perceived a
call for help he was prepared to give, and gave.
Love really cannot see disaster, since it only
knows and sees itself as real. Love and its
absence cannot coexist.

Actually, Pieter, I was thinking quite specifically about how George
rationalized Hitler's regime as being part of "God's Perfect Plan". In
that instance (and many others) George was obviously doing the "Well,
much good came out of it" thing. The in-retrospect thing. Whereas
this passage that Lee has rendered into verse is saying "No, the cause
(good) and its effect must be simultaneous and must be *experienced*
as simultaneous."
Deborah

- I see your point. Thanks for explaining.

- What follows has nothig to do with George
or you disagreement with him; I just wanted
to write down what was in my mind:

When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
"It is impossible to see two worlds."
Dismiss temptation easily today
whenever it arises, merely by
remembering the limits on your choice.
The unreal or the real, the false or true
is what you see, and only what you see.
Perception is consistent with your choice,
and hell or Heaven comes to you as one.|
Accept a little part of hell as real,
and you have damned your eyes and cursed your sight,
and what you will behold is hell indeed.
Yet the release to Heaven still remains
within your range of choice, to take the place
of everything that hell would show to you.
All you need say to any part of hell,
"It is impossible to see two worlds.
I seek my freedom and deliverance,
and this is not a part of what I want."

[Deborah]

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that? If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).

Deborah

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that?

Great! Let's use the Bible as anuthoritative source, even though
it is such a confusing document that there are over 30,000
officially recognized denominations of Christianity in the world
today. No one knows how many orders, sects, and cults...

You Chrisians want us to believe that the production Bible was
was overseen by God, but I'm pretty sure the creator of the
universe would do a better job than that. <snicker>

Post by Deborah
If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts

I can assume that you care about stuff no sane person would care about
it if you take ACIM or it's parent document, the Bible, seriously.

Post by Deborah
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).
Deborah

There is no need to seek safety in God because there is no danger
facing us.

This kind of fearmongering is basic to Christianity, which is
such a crummy religion that it doesn't have anything positive to
offer. So it makes up dangers from whole cloth then offers to
save you from them.

It's a scam as old as prosetitution.

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Post by Sidney Lambe

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that?

Great! Let's use the Bible as anuthoritative source, even though
it is such a confusing document that there are over 30,000
officially recognized denominations of Christianity in the world
today. No one knows how many orders, sects, and cults...
You Chrisians want us to believe that the production Bible was
was overseen by God, but I'm pretty sure the creator of the
universe would do a better job than that. <snicker>

Post by Deborah
If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts

I can assume that you care about stuff no sane person would care about
it if you take ACIM or it's parent document, the Bible, seriously.

Post by Deborah
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).
Deborah

There is no need to seek safety in God because there is no danger
facing us.
This kind of fearmongering is basic to Christianity, which is
such a crummy religion that it doesn't have anything positive to
offer.

What do you expect Romans to offer these "BARBARIANS"??
Sunday Brunch!

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that? If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).
Deborah

When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
to paraphrase T26.VIII.8:1:
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.

[Deborah]

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that? If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).
Deborah

When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.

Yes, but Pieter it is quite irrelevant what the egoless would do, when
we are not egoless. So where does deliverance from ego come from?

I'm starting to get the feeling that God is the *n* word in this ng.
It certainly wasn't the "n" word to Jesus.

Deborah

[Carrie]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When choosing for love and experiencing it,
then anything which isn't love is experienced
as mere illusion, and thus seen through.
For love only the truth is true, and illusion is
merely illusion, however cruel it may appear
to those who think the illusion is real.
(The illusion of separation from love.)
The ego is very clever in making up situations
in which it seems completely impossible to
still believe in the reality of love; in which it
seems its enemy is defeated once and for all.

I think that the passage Lee has rendered into verse is wholly
consistent with Psalm 23. Can we agree on that? If not, what do you
think is the difference? (You can assume that I would see both "the
valley of the shadow of death" and "mine enemies" as fearful thoughts
- but the psalm writer sought his safety in God which was, imo,
appropriate).
Deborah

When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.

Yes, but Pieter it is quite irrelevant what the egoless would do, when
we are not egoless. So where does deliverance from ego come from?
I'm starting to get the feeling that God is the *n* word in this ng.
It certainly wasn't the "n" word to Jesus.
Deborah

I'm thinking whatever one gets from anything (this ng, the bible, what
others say, etc) isn't the actual words used. Like the bible, if you pick it
apart a lot of it doesn't make sense, or relate to now, unless one aligns
with it that way. There are many other books that are much better at this
(now) But people get something, comfort, joining, peace, "Connection" from
the bible. Like the actual book, or thinking about it, and NOT the form
(the book, the pages the words in it). The book is only a "vehicle" for
conveying this in a more psychic, spiritual-joining way. Because so many
have felt this way about it and still do? ACIM is like that, too. It's not
the book, versions, words, what they mean, or don't mean, it's the feeling
one gets (overall) from them and joining with others in this. Like doing the
lessons over and over year after year (when the words say to only do them
one year- "the year we gave to God". and from now on any questions ask one's
Inner Teacher) it's the joining (in mind) that comes from this that has the
value.
If someone is just looking at the words in the book and trying to make
sense of them, or see what other's get from them, coming from ego, they can
(and do) find anything they are looknig for.
the course says "forget this book..."

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
*So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.*
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
*When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.*

Yes, but Pieter it is quite irrelevant what the egoless would do, when
we are not egoless.

Coming Home is the same as becoming egoless.
A goal is not reached if there is no interest in it;
when the state of having reached it is called 'irrelevant'.

Post by Deborah
So where does deliverance from ego come from?

- That is what I described above!
I now marked it with **(two sentences);
see above. In more recognizable form:
Accepting the atonement through
the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Letting oneself be freed from "the blocks
to the awareness of love's presence."
Guidance in learning true forgiveness.

Post by Deborah
I'm starting to get the feeling that God is the *n* word in this ng.
It certainly wasn't the "n" word to Jesus.

- I don't know what you mean with
"the *n* word"; what is it?

Post by Deborah
Deborah

[Deborah]

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
*So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.*
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
*When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.*

Yes, but Pieter it is quite irrelevant what the egoless would do, when
we are not egoless.

Coming Home is the same as becoming egoless.
A goal is not reached if there is no interest in it;
when the state of having reached it is called 'irrelevant'.

Post by Deborah
So where does deliverance from ego come from?

- That is what I described above!
I now marked it with **(two sentences);
Accepting the atonement through
the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Except that above you made no mention whatsoever of the Holy Spirit.

Post by Pieter
Letting oneself be freed from "the blocks
to the awareness of love's presence."
Guidance in learning true forgiveness.

Post by Deborah
I'm starting to get the feeling that God is the *n* word in this ng.
It certainly wasn't the "n" word to Jesus.

- I don't know what you mean with
"the *n* word"; what is it?

Never mind. I'll say it differently: I'm starting to get the feeling
God is a dirty word in this ng. You'll have no trouble understanding
if I say it that way.

I think God IS my salvation. That with which I must join in order to
be complete. Not at some future time, but right now. And that's what
I think the passage Lee posted that we have been discussing is saying.

That's what the atonement IS.

Deborah

[Pieter]

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
When any 'disaster' comes to me, then,
". . . this illusion has a cause which, though
untrue, must be ALREADY in my mind."
*So let me (my mind) be delivered from what I
perceive as outside of myself, happening to me.*
If I were egoless, then what would be called
physical or psychological threat, I would not
experience as such. This is explained in T6.I.
(5:2,3: "You are free to perceive yourself as
persecuted if you choose. When you choose
to react that way, however, you might remember
that I was persecuted as the world judges, and
I did not share this evaluation for myself." and
11:1: "You are not persecuted, nor was I.")
*When I choose to accept the atonement for myself,
then every 'bad' 'happening to me' is a gift to free
my mind from it.*

Yes, but Pieter it is quite irrelevant what the egoless would do, when
we are not egoless.

Coming Home is the same as becoming egoless.
A goal is not reached if there is no interest in it;
when the state of having reached it is called 'irrelevant'.

Post by Deborah
So where does deliverance from ego come from?

- That is what I described above!
I now marked it with **(two sentences);
Accepting the atonement through
the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Except that above you made no mention whatsoever of the Holy Spirit.

My point of departure was that we both know
the Course. So know that having accepted the
ego thought system does mean one cannot be
freed from it but with help coming from beyond
that system. That help in the Course is called
the Holy Spirit or Jesus.

Post by Deborah

Post by Pieter
Letting oneself be freed from "the blocks
to the awareness of love's presence."
Guidance in learning true forgiveness.

Post by Deborah
I'm starting to get the feeling that God is the *n* word in this ng.
It certainly wasn't the "n" word to Jesus.

- I don't know what you mean with
"the *n* word"; what is it?

Never mind. I'll say it differently: I'm starting to get the feeling
God is a dirty word in this ng. You'll have no trouble understanding
if I say it that way.
I think God IS my salvation. That with which I must join in order to
be complete. Not at some future time, but right now. And that's what
I think the passage Lee posted that we have been discussing is saying.
That's what the atonement IS.

Amen to that!

Post by Deborah
Deborah

[Sidney Lambe]

Subject: Everything brings good [iambic pentameter]

In the big picture, that's true. But just telling that to
people who are miserable for one reason or another is not
going to help them.

They need to learn how to change whatever aspect of their
current lives displease them. And all you offer is
useless philosophies and religious double-speak.

But what can you from a document entitled "A Course in Miracles"
that says in its introduction that miracles don't matter?

"The Nature of Peroonal Reality" by Jane Roberts is the
real course in miracles.

ACIM is just fundamentalist Christianity in a New-Age
disguise.


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