What I figured out about the Atonement.

[george]

It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

[Pieter]

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

Great post; thanks!

[expires]

On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
BTW, some ACIM Urtext:
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

[george]

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."

If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

[expires]

Post by george

Post by expires

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

I very much doubt, George, that you'll be
able to quote ACIM to confirm your mad idea
about:
? Jesus shedding a tear of joy over
? the appalling error of the Nazis.
ACIM-Urtext:
" Thoughts INCREASE by being given away.
" The more who BELIEVE in them, the
" STRONGER they become.
" EVERYTHING is an idea.
Wonderful concepts IMO, and based on them
I will never accept the idea of: "shedding
tears of joy over Nazi-desires" and like-
wise sick ideas. BTW, some more ACIM-Urtext:
" The Holy Spirit is the only part of
" the Holy Trinity which is symbolic.
Based on that I will not:
" look at Nazi-like manifestations
" through the Holy Spirit's eyes
From my POV the only thing to look at with
loving and forgiving 'eyes' is *beyond* the
sick manifestation of Nazi ideas to what
desired such appalling ideas to become/seem
real. IOW: Love the dreamers and definitely
not their *insane* desires/ideas/nightmares.
HOWEVER, after (re?)discovering what ACIM's
author(s) (whoever that really was) has to
say about homosexuality, for example:
" Urtext T 2 B 63. The re-interpretation of
" defenses is essential to break open the INNER
" light. Since the Separation, man's defenses have
" been used almost entirely to defend themselves
" AGAINST the Atonement, and thus maintain their
" separation. They generally see this as a need to
" protect the body from external intrusion (or
" intruding), and this kind of misperception is
" largely responsible for the homosexual fallacy, as
" well as your own pregnancy fears. The so-called
" "anal" behavior is a distorted attempt to "steal"
" the Atonement, and deny its worth by concealing
" it, and holding onto it with a bodily receptacle,
" which is regarded as particularly vicious. "Oral"
" fantasies are rather similar in purpose, except
" that they stem more from a sense of deprivation,
" and insatiable thirst which results. "Anal"
" fallacies are more of a refusal to give, while
" oral fantasies emphasize a distorted need to take.
" The main error in both is the belief that the body
" can be used as a means for attaining Atonement.
Cripes!!!??? What (un)'holy' bullshit is that!!!???
If ACIM's author(s) weren't homophobic, then I
haven't the slightest clue what homophobic means.
BTW, does "since the Separation, man's defenses" mean
that mankind existed *before* "the Separation"???????
--expires

[george]

Based on that I will not:
" look at Nazi-like manifestations
" through the Holy Spirit's eyes
From my POV the only thing to look at with
loving and forgiving 'eyes' is *beyond* the
sick manifestation of Nazi ideas to what
desired such appalling ideas to become/seem
real. IOW: Love the dreamers and definitely
not their *insane* desires/ideas/nightmares.

IMO from my application of ACIM it's the choice to see, "sick
manifestation of Nazi " that makes it real. There is another way I
choose to look at it through loving eye's that see insane men
screaming as loudly as they can for help.

A different loving perception is ALWAYS available no matter the form
of seeming evil and that's why all things work for good. IF I'm
WILLING to see them that way.

My responsibility as a Miracle worker is only to accept the Atonement
for myself. The Atonement is the process of forgiveness, that let's me
discard insane hateful perceptions that aren't true and instead accept
loving one's from the Holy Spirit that ARE true and come from god.
It's not hard to understand or apply the Atonement, all it takes is
willingness to let go of what God never created.

[Deborah]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT), george

Post by expires
" look at Nazi-like manifestations
" through the Holy Spirit's eyes
From my POV the only thing to look at with
loving and forgiving 'eyes' is *beyond* the
sick manifestation of Nazi ideas to what
desired such appalling ideas to become/seem
real. IOW: Love the dreamers and definitely
not their *insane* desires/ideas/nightmares.
IMO from my application of ACIM it's the choice to see, "sick
manifestation of Nazi " that makes it real. There is another way I
choose to look at it through loving eye's that see insane men
screaming as loudly as they can for help.
A different loving perception is ALWAYS available no matter the form
of seeming evil and that's why all things work for good. IF I'm
WILLING to see them that way.
My responsibility as a Miracle worker is only to accept the Atonement
for myself. The Atonement is the process of forgiveness, that let's me
discard insane hateful perceptions that aren't true and instead accept
loving one's from the Holy Spirit that ARE true and come from god.
It's not hard to understand or apply the Atonement, all it takes is
willingness to let go of what God never created.

It wouldn't occur to you that the Nazis gave us an opportunity to
choose a more loving perception in that they showed us what is the
wrong direction to go? You're not going to see the lesson in that,
and all things are not going to work for the good if you can't learn
from the examples others set what is or is not an example you should
follow. And I'm not talking about behavior, here. I'm talking about
perceptions. We as a society do not condone the perception of groups
as "disposable" today because of the extreme example the Nazis set.

And I do not know what Jesus is, if he is not an example we should
follow.

Deborah (BC)

[Carrie]

Post by Deborah
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT), george

Post by expires
" look at Nazi-like manifestations
" through the Holy Spirit's eyes
From my POV the only thing to look at with
loving and forgiving 'eyes' is *beyond* the
sick manifestation of Nazi ideas to what
desired such appalling ideas to become/seem
real. IOW: Love the dreamers and definitely
not their *insane* desires/ideas/nightmares.
IMO from my application of ACIM it's the choice to see, "sick
manifestation of Nazi " that makes it real. There is another way I
choose to look at it through loving eye's that see insane men
screaming as loudly as they can for help.
A different loving perception is ALWAYS available no matter the form
of seeming evil and that's why all things work for good. IF I'm
WILLING to see them that way.
My responsibility as a Miracle worker is only to accept the Atonement
for myself. The Atonement is the process of forgiveness, that let's
me discard insane hateful perceptions that aren't true and instead
accept loving one's from the Holy Spirit that ARE true and come from
god. It's not hard to understand or apply the Atonement, all it
takes is willingness to let go of what God never created.

It wouldn't occur to you that the Nazis gave us an opportunity to
choose a more loving perception in that they showed us what is the
wrong direction to go? You're not going to see the lesson in that,
and all things are not going to work for the good if you can't learn
from the examples others set what is or is not an example you should
follow. And I'm not talking about behavior, here. I'm talking about
perceptions. We as a society do not condone the perception of groups
as "disposable" today because of the extreme example the Nazis set.
And I do not know what Jesus is, if he is not an example we should
follow.
Deborah (BC)

Good point. Probably not going to be well recieved, but I feel it's in
line with ACIM
Like the time Marianne Williamson said (I think on Larry King Live)
that Hitler is a Child of God and is in Heaven. Most people need an enemy
and Hitler (and Manson) are the designated ones. Maybe now the vague and
illusive "terrorists" (Osema Bin Laden) What is the point of believing what
ACIM says if one doesn't, well BELIEVE it?"

[expires]

Carrie wrote:
[...]

Post by Carrie
Good point. Probably not going to be well recieved, but I feel it's in
line with ACIM
Like the time Marianne Williamson said (I think on Larry King Live)
that Hitler is a Child of God and is in Heaven. Most people need an enemy
and Hitler (and Manson) are the designated ones. Maybe now the vague and
illusive "terrorists" (Osema Bin Laden) What is the point of believing what
ACIM says if one doesn't, well BELIEVE it?"

ACIM says God creates humans/persons?
"Hitler in Heaven" is black humor :))
--expires

[mr bill]

     " look at Nazi-like manifestations
     " through the Holy Spirit's eyes
 From my POV the only thing to look at with
loving and forgiving 'eyes' is *beyond* the
sick manifestation of Nazi ideas to what
desired such appalling ideas to become/seem
real. IOW: Love the dreamers and definitely
not their *insane* desires/ideas/nightmares.
IMO from my application of ACIM it's the choice to see, "sick
manifestation of Nazi " that makes it real. There is another way I
choose to look at it through loving eye's that see insane men
screaming as loudly as they can for help.
A different loving perception is ALWAYS available no matter the form
of seeming evil and that's why all things work for good. IF I'm
WILLING to see them that way.
My responsibility as a Miracle worker is only to accept the Atonement
for myself. The Atonement is the process of forgiveness, that let's me
discard insane hateful perceptions that aren't true and instead accept
loving one's from the Holy Spirit that ARE true and come from god.
It's not hard to understand or apply the Atonement, all it takes is
willingness to let go of what God never created.

how loving is it to label them as insane?
if accepting atonement is all you need do
then why do you spend so much time and effort
trying to get others to do see the wonder of your choice
and follow you over the cliff?
when are you going to admit
that all your preaching to the choirs
is what you do to soothe your bloated ego?
:)

[Pieter]

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

[expires]

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

Well, yes, if "ALL things" are (seen as) toys:
" T-2.IV.4. All material means that you accept as
" remedies for bodily ills are restatements of magic
" principles. This is the first step in believing
" that the body makes its own illness. It is a
" second misstep to attempt to heal it through non-
" creative agents. It does not follow, however,
" that the use of such agents for corrective
" purposes is evil.
ACIM then is also just a (learning) toy/aid,
AND real "Miracle Workers" don't preach ACIM :)
--expires

[Pieter]

Post by expires

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

" T-2.IV.4. All material means that you accept as
" remedies for bodily ills are restatements of magic
" principles. This is the first step in believing
" that the body makes its own illness. It is a
" second misstep to attempt to heal it through non-
" creative agents. It does not follow, however,
" that the use of such agents for corrective
" purposes is evil.
ACIM then is also just a (learning) toy/aid,
AND real "Miracle Workers" don't preach ACIM :)
--expires

In a group dedicated to ACIM,
it is quite natural that there is
spoken of the book.

[expires]

Post by Pieter

Post by expires

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

" T-2.IV.4. All material means that you accept as
" remedies for bodily ills are restatements of magic
" principles. This is the first step in believing
" that the body makes its own illness. It is a
" second misstep to attempt to heal it through non-
" creative agents. It does not follow, however,
" that the use of such agents for corrective
" purposes is evil.
ACIM then is also just a (learning) toy/aid,
AND real "Miracle Workers" don't preach ACIM :)
--expires

In a group dedicated to ACIM,
it is quite natural that there is
spoken of the book.

You mean a newsgroup with ACIM as topic,
and of course not a newsgroup primarily
or only for worshiping or preaching ACIM,
right? Or do you think this is a newsgroup
dedicated to "Miracle Workers"? I certainly
don't, not only because your postings IMHO
are not even slightly miracle-spirited.
--expires

[george]

Post by Pieter
In a group dedicated to ACIM,
it is quite natural that there is
spoken of the book.

Seems reasonable to me. What else would the site be for?

[Carrie]

Post by george

Post by Pieter
In a group dedicated to ACIM,
it is quite natural that there is
spoken of the book.

Seems reasonable to me. What else would the site be for?

Sharing, learning, becoming aware of one's issues, in order to heal them
and let them go. Practicing forgiveness, and remembering what ACIM says, and
putting it into one's life.
Is it just for posting quotes? Pretty sounding words.

[Mike]

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. Read the above quote
you provided: "ALL things work together for good..." The key word in
there is 'together'. Together. Things working together can make
things good. Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good. This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part. And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

[george]

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

Because all things work together for good makes every part of all
things good also. Some isn't separated out and then made bad. It's
Either all things work together for good or all things work together
for good except these. There is no exception, that is the point and
why ALL things work together for good, purifying ALL PARTS of all
things BECAUSE of the end RESULT.

As Pieter posted : "ALL things work together for good. There are

Post by Pieter
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

This means if I'm CHOOSING to see something that I WANT to be no good,
then I am seeing through my ego and being deceived by it's lies.
"There are NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment" is very clear
and easy to understand.

[Mike]

Post by george

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

Because all things work together for good makes every part of all
things good also. Some isn't separated out and then made bad. It's
Either all things work together for good or all things work together
for good except these. There is no exception, that is the point and
why ALL things work together for good, purifying ALL PARTS of all
things BECAUSE of the end RESULT.
As Pieter posted : "ALL things work together for good. There are

Post by Pieter
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

This means if I'm CHOOSING to see something that I WANT to be no good,
then I am seeing through my ego and being deceived by it's lies.
"There are NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment" is very clear
and easy to understand.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Yes, it is clear and understandable. So why isn't it so for you?
Discernment, George. Look it up. I say to you, choose again.

[george]

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

It's the CHOICE to see the Nazis as evil and vile that makes them that
way. The Atonement is getting a different perception, something like,
men not thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly
as they know how. The Atonement is just about my WILLINGNESS to CHOOSE
to see these men in a different light. One that doesn't condemn or
even see that they are evil and vile but instead sees innocent men not
thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly as they
can.

This perception of innocent men screaming for help brings my reaction
in the now to be WANTING to help. The perception of evil, vile men is
the choice to condemn them and myself NOW and bring conflict hate and
pain NOW.

The Atonement is about personal responsibility for all of my actions
and thoughts. It's no one else's fault and no one else's
responsibility how I CHOOSE to see the world or my reactions and
thoughts. There are no evil, vile men in truth, only innocent men
screaming for help. I choose the world I see by my CHOICE of
perception and my choice of perception IS my choice of reaction and
what I bring into the now. By CHOOSING to see evil, vile men I'm
CHOOSING to be evil and vile myself, just look at the reaction I would
be choosing to bring into the now. Condemnation, hate and punishment,
traits of evil and vile. The face of innocence puts all the blame on
the "other" guy as I project my own evil and vileness onto him while I
stay innocent.

[Debinski]

Hi Mike and all,

I'm responding to this because George posted it -- including Mike's
quote -- on another site and I responded rather hastily saying I
hadn't seen anyone here condemning Nazi's as evil, vile men except
George. After re-reading Mike's quote, I still didn't think Mike was
condemning men, but rather the thought system that led to the "evil
vile" behavior. Which I see as the bulk of what A Course in Miracles
actually does, too -- correct errors in thinking without condemnation
of men. George doesn't seem to think it's possible to correct error
without condemning men though -- or even ironically enough to use
words like murder, robbery, persecution or crucifixion without
condemnation, or to see attack without feeing victimized.

So I was wondering, Mike, if you would mind clarifying the statement
about "evil and vile." WERE you -- as George suggested on the other
site -- condemning men or the false belief that dictated their
actions? He didn't identify the author of the quote or come right out
and say its author was condeming evil and vile men. Just the usual
stuff about how seeing evil and vileness can't be anything BUT
condemnation and rejection of "the HS loving perception" of brothers.

And if I was wrong and someone else here WAS condeming Nazis, and not
the thought system, please clarify that for me too!

Debinski

Post by george

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

It's the CHOICE to see the Nazis as evil and vile that makes them that
way. The Atonement is getting a different perception, something like,
men not thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly
as they know how. The Atonement is just about my WILLINGNESS to CHOOSE
to see these men in a different light. One that doesn't condemn or
even see that they are evil and vile but instead sees innocent men not
thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly as they
can.
This perception of innocent men screaming for help brings my reaction
in the now to be WANTING to help. The perception of evil, vile men is
the choice to condemn them and myself NOW and bring conflict hate and
pain NOW.
The Atonement is about personal responsibility for all of my actions
and thoughts. It's no one else's fault and no one else's
responsibility how I CHOOSE to see the world or my reactions and
thoughts. There are no evil, vile men in truth, only innocent men
screaming for help. I choose the world I see by my CHOICE of
perception and my choice of perception IS my choice of reaction and
what I bring into the now. By CHOOSING to see evil, vile men I'm
CHOOSING to be evil and vile myself, just look at the reaction I would
be choosing to bring into the now. Condemnation, hate and punishment,
traits of evil and vile. The face of innocence puts all the blame on
the "other" guy as I project my own evil and vileness onto him while I
stay innocent.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Mike]

Post by Debinski
Hi Mike and all,
I'm responding to this because George posted it -- including Mike's
quote -- on another site and I responded rather hastily saying I
hadn't seen anyone here condemning Nazi's as evil, vile men except
George. After re-reading Mike's quote, I still didn't think Mike was
condemning men, but rather the thought system that led to the "evil
vile" behavior. Which I see as the bulk of what A Course in Miracles
actually does, too -- correct errors in thinking without condemnation
of men. George doesn't seem to think it's possible to correct error
without condemning men though -- or even ironically enough to use
words like murder, robbery, persecution or crucifixion without
condemnation, or to see attack without feeing victimized.
So I was wondering, Mike, if you would mind clarifying the statement
about "evil and vile." WERE you -- as George suggested on the other
site -- condemning men or the false belief that dictated their
actions? He didn't identify the author of the quote or come right out
and say its author was condeming evil and vile men. Just the usual
stuff about how seeing evil and vileness can't be anything BUT
condemnation and rejection of "the HS loving perception" of brothers.
And if I was wrong and someone else here WAS condeming Nazis, and not
the thought system, please clarify that for me too!
Debinski

Post by george

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

It's the CHOICE to see the Nazis as evil and vile that makes them that
way. The Atonement is getting a different perception, something like,
men not thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly
as they know how. The Atonement is just about my WILLINGNESS to CHOOSE
to see these men in a different light. One that doesn't condemn or
even see that they are evil and vile but instead sees innocent men not
thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly as they
can.
This perception of innocent men screaming for help brings my reaction
in the now to be WANTING to help. The perception of evil, vile men is
the choice to condemn them and myself NOW and bring conflict hate and
pain NOW.
The Atonement is about personal responsibility for all of my actions
and thoughts. It's no one else's fault and no one else's
responsibility how I CHOOSE to see the world or my reactions and
thoughts. There are no evil, vile men in truth, only innocent men
screaming for help. I choose the world I see by my CHOICE of
perception and my choice of perception IS my choice of reaction and
what I bring into the now. By CHOOSING to see evil, vile men I'm
CHOOSING to be evil and vile myself, just look at the reaction I would
be choosing to bring into the now. Condemnation, hate and punishment,
traits of evil and vile. The face of innocence puts all the blame on
the "other" guy as I project my own evil and vileness onto him while I
stay innocent.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't condemn anyone. But I am somewhat surprised to learn
that George is able to access another website.

[Mike]

Post by Debinski
Hi Mike and all,
I'm responding to this because George posted it -- including Mike's
quote -- on another site and I responded rather hastily saying I
hadn't seen anyone here condemning Nazi's as evil, vile men except
George. After re-reading Mike's quote, I still didn't think Mike was
condemning men, but rather the thought system that led to the "evil
vile" behavior. Which I see as the bulk of what A Course in Miracles
actually does, too -- correct errors in thinking without condemnation
of men. George doesn't seem to think it's possible to correct error
without condemning men though -- or even ironically enough to use
words like murder, robbery, persecution or crucifixion without
condemnation, or to see attack without feeing victimized.
So I was wondering, Mike, if you would mind clarifying the statement
about "evil and vile." WERE you -- as George suggested on the other
site -- condemning men or the false belief that dictated their
actions? He didn't identify the author of the quote or come right out
and say its author was condeming evil and vile men. Just the usual
stuff about how seeing evil and vileness can't be anything BUT
condemnation and rejection of "the HS loving perception" of brothers.
And if I was wrong and someone else here WAS condeming Nazis, and not
the thought system, please clarify that for me too!
Debinski

Post by george

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Naxism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

It's the CHOICE to see the Nazis as evil and vile that makes them that
way. The Atonement is getting a different perception, something like,
men not thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly
as they know how. The Atonement is just about my WILLINGNESS to CHOOSE
to see these men in a different light. One that doesn't condemn or
even see that they are evil and vile but instead sees innocent men not
thinking with their right minds screaming for help as loudly as they
can.
This perception of innocent men screaming for help brings my reaction
in the now to be WANTING to help. The perception of evil, vile men is
the choice to condemn them and myself NOW and bring conflict hate and
pain NOW.
The Atonement is about personal responsibility for all of my actions
and thoughts. It's no one else's fault and no one else's
responsibility how I CHOOSE to see the world or my reactions and
thoughts. There are no evil, vile men in truth, only innocent men
screaming for help. I choose the world I see by my CHOICE of
perception and my choice of perception IS my choice of reaction and
what I bring into the now. By CHOOSING to see evil, vile men I'm
CHOOSING to be evil and vile myself, just look at the reaction I would
be choosing to bring into the now. Condemnation, hate and punishment,
traits of evil and vile. The face of innocence puts all the blame on
the "other" guy as I project my own evil and vileness onto him while I
stay innocent.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As you suggest, Deb, I was not condemning men but their
thoughts and actions, specifically, in this case, Nazis and their
fascist beliefs. Like you I believe it possible to seperate the
doer
from its deeds. If it were not so then sin would be true and we
would all be irrevocably lost. We are not, of course, not even
those
who have committed atrocities against others.
Those who argue, as George seems to, that it is the seeing
Nazis as evil and vile that makes them evil and vile hold to an
absurd position. That argument states that perception makes
reality when it only gives form to illusion. How many concentration
camp victims left the world dreaming a happy dream?

[Debinski]

Post by Mike

Post by Mike
As you suggest, Deb, I was not condemning men but their

thoughts and actions, specifically, in this case, Nazis and their
fascist beliefs. Like you I believe it possible to seperate the
doer
from its deeds. If it were not so then sin would be true and we
would all be irrevocably lost. We are not, of course, not even
those
who have committed atrocities against others.
Those who argue, as George seems to, that it is the seeing
Nazis as evil and vile that makes them evil and vile hold to an
absurd position. That argument states that perception makes
reality when it only gives form to illusion. How many concentration
camp victims left the world dreaming a happy dream?<

Thanks for responding, Mike. I hadn’t been reading this group much --
sorry all J -- but when I saw George’s post on the other site I
suspected this was the group he was talking about. And having had a
few conversations with him myself -- in which he imagined I was
condemning people when I wasn’t, in conflict with him when I wasn’t,
and even feeling victimized when I wasn’t, I was just curious to see
if anyone over here actually was condemning Nazis and in conflict with
George.

Post by Mike
Those who argue, as George seems to, that it is the seeing
Nazis as evil and vile that makes them evil and vile hold to an
absurd position. That argument states that perception makes
reality when it only gives form to illusion. <

I agree Mike. It’s ignorance (absence of knowledge) that makes men
behave violently, not perception. Responding to murder or robbery by
telling ourselves “Oh, that can’t really be happening, let’s change
our story about it and it will go away,” is no less denial that trying
to convince ourselves that it doesn’t matter what is seen with the
body’s eyes or done in the world because none of it is real. Neither
of those approaches touches cause, so nothing real happens and the
dream goes on utterly unaffected. Well it MAY produce a temporary
sense of “personal peace” but it does so at the cost of imagining
your brothers here/now are condemning “what you have so lovingly
forgiven” and consequently need your help to teach them how to forgive
“as you have.”

I once asked George how long he thinks it will take to convince six
billion people to accept his “loving perceptions.“ He said he’s not
trying to tell anyone else what to do, just sharing what works for
him. When you tell your stories publicly though and call them “the HS
loving perception,” you leave the realm of the experiential and enter
the realm of the theological. Or when you make statements like “it’s
not possible to see attack without feeling victimized” or “anyone who
uses words like murder and robbery is not looking with the HS” or “I
wasn’t robbed but the poor guy who robbed me was out of his mind”
clearly you are making unfounded judgments, not just sharing what
works for you.

Any attempts *I* have made to point out the cost of maintaining his
stories or how narrowly he restricts his world with more and more
“do’s and don’ts” to defend them, fall on deaf ears. He seems to truly
believe anyone who does NOT accept his stories is not only condemning
the men he defends but is in conflict with him. I don’t care in the
least that he imagines I am personally condemning anyone or in
conflict with him. But I do care when he insists that mass murder is
good and compassion for mass murderers and their victims (shedding
tears over the Holocaust) is a mistake. God only knows WHY I care
because who in their right mind would accept such insanity? But
nevertheless, I do care.

Anyway, thanks again for responding. As for your final question, I
would have to say there may have been a few Holocaust victims who left
the world having a happy dream, but I seriously doubt any of the
victimizers did. After all, their “utopian dream” of “ridding the
world of undesirables” was an utter failure. As George’s will be too
when he realizes that’s what he’s trying to do. In reality, false mass
judgments of your brothers’ thoughts is no less violent than mass
murder of their bodies -- and no less doomed to failure.

And if you’re reading this George, that is NOT a judgment or
condemnation of you OR of the Nazis. Just an attempt to look at what
is and isn’t true. It’s not personal.

Debinski

[Mike]

Post by Debinski

      As you suggest, Deb, I was not condemning men but their

  thoughts and actions, specifically, in this case, Nazis and their
  fascist beliefs.  Like you I believe it possible to seperate the
doer
  from its deeds.  If it were not so then sin would be true and we
  would all be irrevocably lost.  We are not, of course, not even
those
  who have committed atrocities against others.
     Those who argue, as George seems to, that it is the seeing
  Nazis as evil and vile that makes them evil and vile hold to an
  absurd position.  That argument states that perception makes
  reality when it only gives form to illusion.  How many concentration
  camp victims left the world dreaming a happy dream?<

Thanks for responding, Mike. I hadn’t been reading this group much --
sorry all J -- but when I saw George’s post on the other site I
suspected this was the group he was talking about. And having had a
few conversations with him myself -- in which he imagined I was
condemning people when I wasn’t, in conflict with him when I wasn’t,
and even feeling victimized when I wasn’t, I was just curious to see
if anyone over here actually was condemning Nazis and in conflict with
George.

     Those who argue, as George seems to, that it is the seeing
  Nazis as evil and vile that makes them evil and vile hold to an
  absurd position.  That argument states that perception makes
  reality when it only gives form to illusion.  <

I agree Mike. It’s ignorance (absence of knowledge) that makes men
behave violently, not perception. Responding to murder or robbery by
telling ourselves “Oh, that can’t really be happening, let’s change
our story about it and it will go away,” is no less denial that trying
to convince ourselves that it doesn’t matter what is seen with the
body’s eyes or done in the world because none of it is real. Neither
of those approaches touches cause, so nothing real happens and the
dream goes on utterly unaffected. Well it MAY produce a temporary
sense of “personal peace”  but it does so at the cost of imagining
your brothers here/now are condemning “what you have so lovingly
forgiven” and consequently need your help to teach them how to forgive
“as you have.”
I once asked George how long he thinks it will take to convince six
billion people to accept his “loving perceptions.“ He said he’s not
trying to tell anyone else what to do, just sharing what works for
him. When you tell your stories publicly though and call them “the HS
loving perception,” you leave the realm of the experiential and enter
the realm of the theological. Or when you make statements like “it’s
not possible to see attack without feeling victimized” or “anyone who
uses words like murder and robbery is not looking with the HS” or “I
wasn’t robbed but the poor guy who robbed me was out of his mind”
clearly you are making unfounded judgments, not just sharing what
works for you.
Any attempts *I* have made to point out the cost of maintaining his
stories or how narrowly he restricts his world with more and more
“do’s and don’ts” to defend them, fall on deaf ears. He seems to truly
believe anyone who does NOT accept his stories is not only condemning
the men he defends but is in conflict with him. I don’t care in the
least that he imagines I am personally condemning anyone or in
conflict with him. But I do care when he insists that mass murder is
good and compassion for mass murderers and their victims (shedding
tears over the Holocaust) is a mistake. God only knows WHY I care
because who in their right mind would accept such insanity? But
nevertheless, I do care.
Anyway, thanks again for responding. As for your final question, I
would have to say there may have been a few Holocaust victims who left
the world having a happy dream, but I seriously doubt any of the
victimizers did. After all, their “utopian dream” of “ridding the
world of undesirables” was an utter failure. As George’s will be too
when he realizes that’s what he’s trying to do. In reality, false mass
judgments of your brothers’ thoughts is no less violent than mass
murder of their bodies -- and no less doomed to failure.
And if you’re reading this George, that is NOT a judgment or
condemnation of you OR of the Nazis. Just an attempt to look at what
is and isn’t true. It’s not personal.
Debinski

I agree with all you say. And you make an excellent point when
you write, "there may have been a few Holocaust victims who left
the world having a happy dream, but I seriously doubt any of the
victimizers did". The victimizers are the topic after all.

[Pieter]

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. Read the above quote
you provided: "ALL things work together for good..." The key word in
there is 'together'. Together. Things working together can make
things good. Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good. This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part. And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.

It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.

Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".

Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
namely the Will of God.

For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
the Holy Spirit lets "good" things happen to me; that is:
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.

[Mike]

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.
It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.
Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".
Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
 namely the Will of God.
For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It, being the past, matters NOW because ideas do not leave
their source.

Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit "lets" things happen
to you?

[Pieter]

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. Read the above quote
you provided: "ALL things work together for good..." The key word in
there is 'together'. Together. Things working together can make
things good. Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good. This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part. And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.
It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.
Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".
Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
namely the Will of God.
For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It, being the past, matters NOW because ideas do not leave
their source.

What exactly do you mean?
Since in truth there is but
one Source, which is God.

Post by Mike
Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit "lets" things happen
to you?

That was a manner of speaking.
What happens to me is what I asked for.
My function is to accept the responsibility for
what happens to me, and to align my will with God's.
In truth our will IS God's Will, and doing His Will is
what we truly want. Since it means peace and happiness.

[Mike]

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM flat out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a tear for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a difference, it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter the event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.
It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.
Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".
Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
 namely the Will of God.
For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

  It, being the past, matters NOW because ideas do not leave
  their source.

What exactly do you mean?
Since in truth there is but
one Source, which is God.

The statement that ideas do not leave their source
does not apply only to God. If you would open your
hymnal to T-19.IV.C.2:14 you'll find the following:
"We know that an idea leaves not its source.'

Small s.
It seems the law applies to us, also.
We are told that we learn what we teach.
And we are told that ideas grow as they are shared.

Because of this the actions of your neighbors some 60
years ago still matter. Their philosophy is still being
taught, still being shared. And they are trapped by the
ideas they have created and shared. Would you have
them remain trapped even if by their own foolishness?
No, of course not.

NOW is inconsequential if it is built on the errors of the past.

Post by Pieter

  Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit "lets" things happen
  to you?

That was a manner of speaking.

OK

Post by Pieter
What happens to me is what I asked for.
My function is to accept the responsibility for
what happens to me, and to align my will with God's.
In truth our will IS God's Will, and doing His Will is
what we truly want. Since it means peace and happiness.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

[Pieter]

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by Mike

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM
flat
out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a
tear
for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a
difference,
it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter
the
event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

You guys are missing the forest for the trees. Read the above quote
you provided: "ALL things work together for good..." The key word in
there is 'together'. Together. Things working together can make
things good. Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good. This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part. And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.
It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.
Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".
Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
namely the Will of God.
For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

It, being the past, matters NOW because ideas do not leave
their source.

What exactly do you mean?
Since in truth there is but
one Source, which is God.

The statement that ideas do not leave their source
does not apply only to God. If you would open your
"We know that an idea leaves not its source.'
Small s.
It seems the law applies to us, also.
We are told that we learn what we teach.
And we are told that ideas grow as they are shared.

Yes, because of the separation there also
is the ego source. Very important to me is
what is said in the section "The "Dynamics" of the Ego",
that the ego has NO power of itself, only the power
I GIVE to it by my belief in it:

" "Dynamics" implies the power to DO something, and
the whole separation FALLACY lies in the belief that
the ego has the power to do ANYTHING. The ego is
fearful to you BECAUSE you believe this.Yet the truth
is very simple: ALL POWER IS OF GOD.What is
NOT of Him has no power to do ANYTHING. When
we look at the ego, then,we are not considering dynamics,
but delusions." (T-11.V.3:3-4:1)

Post by Mike
Because of this the actions of your neighbors some 60
years ago still matter. Their philosophy is still being
taught, still being shared. And they are trapped by the
ideas they have created and shared. Would you have
them remain trapped even if by their own foolishness?
No, of course not.

Completely agreed.
The only thing we can do for others
is making an appeal to their saneness
(- from the saneness in ourselves);
the Christ in them. It does not help to
say to them that they are trapped in false
ideas, if they are not ready for it. Only
experiencing the (utter) consequences of
one's thoughts makes one ready for change.
Another passage very relevant here, imo:

"The world but demonstrates an ancient truth; you will
believe that others do to you EXACTLY what you think
you did to them. But once deluded into blaming them,
you will not see the cause of what they do because you
WANT the guilt to rest on them. How childish is this
petulant device to keep your innocence by pushing guilt
outside yourself, but never letting go! It is not easy to
perceive the jest when all around you do your eyes
behold its heavy consequences, but without their trifling
cause. Without the cause do its effects seem serious and
sad indeed.Yet they but follow. And it is their CAUSE
which follows nothing, and is but a jest." (T-27.VIII.8)

Post by Mike
NOW is inconsequential if it is built on the errors of the past.

In the NOW one can choose for the
guidance of the Holy Spirit (one's true Self).
The ego then is completely powerless, literally.
Not for those who do NOT follow their right Teacher.

[Mike]

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by Pieter

Post by george
It's my opinion that, that was edited out for a reason. It goes
against the Spirit of ACIM and totally contradicts where ACIM
flat
out
states, " all things work for good."
If all things work for good, what would Jesus have to shed a
tear
for,
unless it was a tear of joy. The form never makes a
difference,
it's
always a choice of how I WANT to look at it, because a loving
way
through the Holy Spirit's eyes is always available no matter
the
event
or form of seeming evil.

"ALL things work together for good. There are
NO exceptions except in the ego's judgment."
(T-4.V.1:1-2)

  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.  Read the above
quote
you provided:  "ALL things work together for good..."  The key
word in
there is 'together'.  Together.  Things working together can make
things good.  Nazism in and of itself was not good...not by any
stretch of the imagination no matter how badly you want it to be so.
However, joining the actions of others with the, at best, misguided
actions of any and all
fascist movements can turn even something as evil and vile as your
beloved Nazis for good.  This is what the Holy Spirit brings to the
table when you are willing to do your part.  And, believe me, your
part is not to either extol the actions of Nazis as good in and of
itself  or to
give their actions a free pass because you cannot or will not
interpret
ACIM in the Light in which it was written.

ACIM is about letting its readers be guided by the
Holy Spirit NOW. It is not about what others did
and experienced more than 60 years ago.
It is about letting oneself in the NOW, the only time
there really is, be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This choice is NOW possible, and with that choice
all things I am asked to do or say, or to not do or say,
and all things that happen to me, serve my healing. And
with one's healing all mankind is healed, as far as it is
accepted.
Whatever physical actions: they are merely illusions
with respect to Life itself. Experiencing them otherwise
is merely because of identification with the ego.
Identification with the ego causes actions
to be "good" or "bad".
Nothing happens to me without my will. If I think
something happens to me without my will, it is
because of my ego identification.
The Holy Spirit knows what my true will is,
 namely the Will of God.
For the sake of my still existing identification with the ego,
things which serve my healing, given the state of mind
in which I am. My task is to forgive myself that I need(ed)
the lessons life presents to me.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

  It, being the past, matters NOW because ideas do not leave
  their source.

What exactly do you mean?
Since in truth there is but
one Source, which is God.

  The statement that ideas do not leave their source
  does not apply only to God.  If you would open your
  "We know that an idea leaves not its source.'
  Small s.
  It seems the law applies to us, also.
  We are told that we learn what we teach.
  And we are told that ideas grow as they are shared.

Yes, because of the separation there also
is the ego source. Very important to me is
what is said in the section "The "Dynamics" of the Ego",
that the ego has NO power of itself, only the power
" "Dynamics" implies the power to DO something, and
the whole separation FALLACY lies in the belief that
the ego has the power to do ANYTHING. The ego is
fearful to you BECAUSE you believe this.Yet the truth
is very simple: ALL POWER IS OF GOD.What is
NOT of Him has no power to do ANYTHING. When
we look at the ego, then,we are not considering dynamics,
but delusions." (T-11.V.3:3-4:1)

  Because of this the actions of your neighbors some 60
  years ago still matter.  Their philosophy is still being
  taught, still being shared.  And they are trapped by the
  ideas they have created and shared.  Would you have
  them remain trapped even if by their own foolishness?
  No, of course not.

Completely agreed.
The only thing we can do for others
is making an appeal to their saneness
(- from the saneness in ourselves);
the Christ in them. It does not help to
say to them that they are trapped in false
ideas, if they are not ready for it. Only
experiencing the (utter) consequences of
one's thoughts makes one ready for change.
"The world but demonstrates an ancient truth; you will
believe that others do to you EXACTLY what you think
you did to them. But once deluded into blaming them,
you will not see the cause of what they do because you
WANT the guilt to rest on them. How childish is this
petulant device to keep your innocence by pushing guilt
outside yourself, but never letting go! It is not easy to
perceive the jest when all around you do your eyes
behold its heavy consequences, but without their trifling
cause. Without the cause do its effects seem serious and
sad indeed.Yet they but follow. And it is their CAUSE
which follows nothing, and is but a jest." (T-27.VIII.8)

  NOW is inconsequential if it is built on the errors of the past.

In the NOW one can choose for the
guidance of the Holy Spirit (one's true Self).
The ego then is completely powerless, literally.
Not for those who do NOT follow their right Teacher.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Jonathon Edwards, the puritanical bastion of liberalism
and tolerance, wrote:

'I hold it true that thoughts are things
They're endowed with bodies
breath and wings
and that we send them forth to fill
The world good results or ill...'

The above version is a rewrite by Henry Van Dyke.
I think our thoughts are the farthings all of which
must be paid before there is an ending to this
illusion.

Beyond that I think we have beat this subject to death.

[Sharon]

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand
that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of
the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's
perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are
ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery
to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of
dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the
truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to
understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and
never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point
of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except
in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never
a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I
finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a
choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

To apply what I just said in my last post - the HS uses
every delusion we hold (even holocausts) as an opportunity
to heal our mind. Only in THIS sense is it "good" although
I think "helpful" is a more accurate word. With this in
mind, the Course also states that a "delay in time is
tragic". Not true, just tragic, like if your child was
having a long and scary nightmare and you could not wake
him. It all depends on how you look at it - the holocaust
can be tragic from the perspective of time(illusion) but
helpful from the perspective of healing the mind(love).



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ***@netfront.net ---

[Carrie]

Post by Sharon

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand
that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of
the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's
perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are
ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery
to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of
dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the
truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to
understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and
never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point
of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except
in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never
a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I
finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a
choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

To apply what I just said in my last post - the HS uses
every delusion we hold (even holocausts) as an opportunity
to heal our mind. Only in THIS sense is it "good" although
I think "helpful" is a more accurate word. With this in
mind, the Course also states that a "delay in time is
tragic". Not true, just tragic, like if your child was
having a long and scary nightmare and you could not wake
him. It all depends on how you look at it - the holocaust
can be tragic from the perspective of time(illusion) but
helpful from the perspective of healing the mind(love).

There's also the idea that at some point the ego manifests itself in
something big and major like the Holocaust. Maybe the same with everything
like that, like all the current earthquakes happening. A reminder to "return
to Love". Not give out negative energy, or whatever.

[John Radgosky]

Post by Sharon

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand
that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of
the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's
perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are
ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery
to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of
dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the
truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to
understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and
never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point
of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except
in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never
a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I
finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a
choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires

To apply what I just said in my last post - the HS uses
every delusion we hold (even holocausts) as an opportunity
to heal our mind.  Only in THIS sense is it "good" although
I think "helpful" is a more accurate word.   With this in
mind, the Course also states that a "delay in time is
tragic".  Not true, just tragic,  like if your child was
having a long and scary nightmare and you could not wake
him.  It all depends on how you look at it - the holocaust
can be tragic from the perspective of time(illusion) but
helpful from the perspective of healing the mind(love).
- Show quoted text -

None of the numerous holocausts are delusions. They each occurred.
And each is a major example of the extent to which man can be cruel to
man. To say the holocaust is a delusion is innapropriate. The
holocaust is real all right. Justy as real as any and all suffering.

The delusion is the thought or mind error that can lead to actions
that make the holocaust and all genocide or any suffering a fact in
our existence. The delusion is that people were not honored and were
deserving of being put to death in large numbers with an intent to
make them extinct. The idea is the delusion. Not the event itself.
Saying the holocuast is a delusion is to deny the reality of the
suffering. And that is not an appropriate denial.

The event of the holocaust is helpful to no one. The only thing that
is helpful is to deal with the ideas that lead to such errors of
action. Unfortunately mankind has had to deal with genocide over and
over again across the globe. Mankind has yet to learn anything
substantial by these repeated examples of extreme cruelty on a large
scale.

Everythihng the course deals with is aimed at training the mind. The
course does not deny suffering exists by claiming it is a delusion.
No events are delusions. Delusions reside in the mind. Suffering is
real. Just as real as joy. The only difference is, suffering can be
eliminated. It is the dark that is dispersed once the light goes on.
It's automatic. Neither the light nor the dark can help it. One
automatically eliminates the other.

One must be careful in distinguishing what is and what is not,
delusion.

[Sharon]

Post by Sharon
To apply what I just said in my last post - the HS uses
every delusion we hold (even holocausts) as an opportunity
to heal our mind.  Only in THIS sense is it "good" although
I think "helpful" is a more accurate word.   With this in
mind, the Course also states that a "delay in time is
tragic".  Not true, just tragic,  like if your child was
having a long and scary nightmare and you could not wake
him.  It all depends on how you look at it - the holocaust
can be tragic from the perspective of time(illusion) but
helpful from the perspective of healing the mind(love).

None of the numerous holocausts are delusions.  They each occurred.
And each is a major example of the extent to which man can be cruel to
man.  To say the holocaust is a delusion is innapropriate.  The
holocaust is real all right.  Justy as real as any and all suffering.
The delusion is the thought or mind error that can lead to actions
that make the holocaust and all genocide or any suffering a fact in
our existence.  The delusion is that people were not honored and were
deserving of being put to death in large numbers with an intent to
make them extinct.  The idea is the delusion.  Not the event itself.
Saying the holocuast is a delusion is to deny the reality of the
suffering.  And that is not an appropriate denial.
The event of the holocaust is helpful to no one.  The only thing that
is helpful is to deal with the ideas that lead to such errors of
action.  Unfortunately mankind has had to deal with genocide over and
over again across the globe.  Mankind has yet to learn anything
substantial by these repeated examples of extreme cruelty on a large
scale.
Everythihng the course deals with is aimed at training the mind.  The
course does not deny suffering exists by claiming it is a delusion.
No events are delusions. Delusions reside in the mind.  Suffering is
real.  Just as real as joy.  The only difference is, suffering can be
eliminated.  It is the dark that is dispersed once the light goes on.
It's automatic.  Neither the light nor the dark can help it.  One
automatically eliminates the other.
One must be careful in distinguishing what is and what is not,
delusion.- Hide quoted text -

Let me sum up my point (and maybe a few other thoughts) again because
maybe I was not clear:

Here is a rough list of the two levels the Course addresses:

1. Time/world/dream/happy dream/illusion
2. Timeless/unchanging/Truth/Reality/Heaven.

My post was addressing these concepts.

Suffering, obviously, fits into 1. and is "tragic" like a child
having an extended nightmare. The parents know its not true (insert
Jesus here) but still have compassion for the child (insert collective
sleeping sonship here) that believes it's very real and is suffering
over his own delusions. (hence the whole Jesus "cried" over the
holocaust urtext quote. See footnote). Forgiveness, miracles and
healing of the mind also fit into 1. However, since they are used to
heal the mind, they make an otherwise pointless suffering situation
(aka the Holocaust) into, at least, a redeeming teaching/healing
scenario. if you will. Any event or situation is only good/helpful
in this sense. (I'm now alluding to George and the "all things work
together for good" Course quote).

Obviously, it would be nicer (understatement) if we were not having a
delusional dream of death, suffering and despair that involved such
scenarios as holocausts and nuclear bombs. But that doesn't make them
or the suffering involved anymore real, in an ultamate sense. (see 2.
above). Again, the Course talks in levels, and everything is either
in 1 or 2. No grey area. This what makes it so effective. It's is
addressed in the Course this way, because it not about "being careful"
with what we know, it's what we don't know (or pretend we forgot) that
continues to allow us to slumber a fearful dream, "not remembering" we
choose our own suffering to begin with.

footnote: This is not to say the original un-edited urtext is accurate
or not. I have no idea, nor do I think that the Jesus cried comment is
important to the central message of healing our mind (IMO). I only
mention it because it was part of the conversation.

[John Radgosky]

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Chances are that George's "language" is a little off the mark so that
his "intention" isn't expressed as precisely as he might otherwise
wish.

I'm sure you can appreciate the concept that there is no need for
suffering. And of course, suffering is both cause and effect of a
condition of being human. And, that it is possible to "detach" or at
least not be attached, to misery or those things that are delusional
and lead to misery. That whole cycle of the Third Reich episode has
it roots in earlier history prior to what finally occurred, and had
mankind been given the opportunity to do it all over again, it could
have been avoided, Hitler was a product of his era, the environment
in Germany at that time, and a warped idea of how to deal with it.

Shedding a tear is easy to do over that episode and the many just like
it. Genocide on a large scale is not exclusive to Germany. Man
repeats such cruelty time and again, and still we have not learned.
From Guatemala to Turkey, parts of Africa, genocide has been a fact of
history. In our own country USA, one could argue that our early
treatment of native Americans followed the same kind of thought
process towards other humans. Mankind might want to consider shedding
tears for all of these peoples.

We can either go on in this way and keep repeating the cycles over and
over again to infinity. Or, we can search for a different approach.

I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic. Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place. I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it. Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.

John Radgosky

[george]

Post by John Radgosky

Post by expires
On Mon Apr 12 2010 21:02:30 GMT+0200

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

"everything happens for a reason
and the reasons are ALWAYS good"!?
Why then, George, according to ACIM,
did Jesus shed many tears over the
appalling error of the Nazis? Why shed
tears over something that according to
you happened for *good* reasons?
" 260. The Holy Spirit is the Bringer
" of Revelations, not miracles.
--expires- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Chances are that George's "language" is a little off the mark so that
his "intention" isn't expressed as precisely as he might otherwise
wish.
I'm sure you can appreciate the concept that there is no need for
suffering.  And of course, suffering is both cause and effect of a
condition of being human.  And, that it is possible to "detach" or at
least not be attached, to misery or those things that are delusional
and lead to misery.  That whole cycle of the Third Reich episode has
it roots in earlier history prior to what finally occurred, and had
mankind been given the opportunity to do it all over again, it could
have been avoided,  Hitler was a product of his era, the environment
in Germany at that time, and a warped idea of how to deal with it.
Shedding a tear is easy to do over that episode and the many just like
it.  Genocide on a large scale is not exclusive to Germany.  Man
repeats such cruelty time and again, and still we have not learned.
From Guatemala to Turkey, parts of Africa, genocide has been a fact of
history.  In our own country USA, one could argue that our early
treatment of native Americans followed the same kind of thought
process towards other humans.  Mankind might want to consider shedding
tears for all of these peoples.
We can either go on in this way and keep repeating the cycles over and
over again to infinity.  Or, we can search for a different approach.
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic.  Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place.  I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it.  Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John I missed you around here.

[expires]

On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic. Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place. I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it. Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)

Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.

George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).

Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)

--expires

[george]

Post by expires
On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic.  Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place.  I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it.  Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)
Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.
George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).
Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)
--expires

George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context

A person can never know anyone's intent but they can make up what they
want it to be. In that choice is, do I want to have faith in the other
persons intent, that they are doing their best with what they know and
that it is right for them and share in the joy of oneness or do I want
to doubt their intent as being wrong and thus condemn it and try and
separate myself from it and them. The choice ALWAYS talks about the
chooser and has nothing to do with the one projected onto.

This is as ACIM calls it seeing what one wants to see because one
wants to see it.

[expires]

On Tue May 04 2010 21:32:02 GMT+0200

Post by expires

Post by expires
On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic. Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place. I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it. Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)
Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.
George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).
Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)
--expires

George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context
A person can never know anyone's intent but they can make up what they
want it to be. In that choice is, do I want to have faith in the other
persons intent, that they are doing their best with what they know and
that it is right for them and share in the joy of oneness or do I want
to doubt their intent as being wrong and thus condemn it and try and
separate myself from it and them. The choice ALWAYS talks about the
chooser and has nothing to do with the one projected onto.
This is as ACIM calls it seeing what one wants to see because one
wants to see it.

Bullshit dear George, because
'you' *always* only meet yourSelf :)
So, if 'you' are *also* mySelf,
it must be nonsense to say: "A person
can never know anyone's intent" :)
The only mystery/'secret' in regard to
the person 'George' is: There is none!
--expires

[John Radgosky]

Post by expires
On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic.  Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place.  I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it.  Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)
Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.
George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).
Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)
--expires

I find the original topic to be of genuine value and worthy of
discussion. The sub plot topics have their place , but seem to
attempt to change the aim of the original post. Everyone has their
preferred way to communicate. And I'm not discussing that in this
thread since the original topic has the greater payoff for a wider
audience.
That's all.

John Radgosky

[george]

Post by John Radgosky

Post by expires
On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic.  Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place.  I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it.  Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)
Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.
George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).
Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)
--expires

I find the original topic to be of genuine value and worthy of
discussion.  The sub plot topics have their place , but seem to
attempt to change the aim of the original post.  Everyone has their
preferred way to communicate.  And I'm not discussing that in this
thread since the original topic has the greater payoff for a wider
audience.
That's all.
John Radgosky

Hi John, I said what I believe the Atonement is. I had a real hard
time figuring it out as it took me 30 years of ACIM application to
finally understand what I believe to be true.

That's not to say I'm right and that i won't change my mind if an idea
comes along that makes more sense to me. I would like to open the
topic up to some discussion on the Atonement. What do the others of
you believe it means and why?

[John Radgosky]

Post by george

Post by John Radgosky

Post by expires
On Tue May 04 2010 15:14:06 GMT+0200

Post by John Radgosky
[...]
I hope you sense that George is recommending a different approach.
There is no need to argue with him from a position of logic.  Logic
brought us to the idea it was ok to eradicate millions in the first
place.  I would hope you might try and understand his "intent" in what
he writes, not the potentially flawed manner in which he might express
it.  Not much is gained in "mental" posturing.
John Radgosky

Hi John :)
Logic and critical thinking are neutral mental tools,
that can be used by compassionate hearts/(souls?) or
by (wanna-be god-like) egos, to name two 'extremes'.
FMPOV it was heartless insanity that brought (us?) the
criminal "idea it was ok to eradicate millions", and
it was THEN to a critical/decisive extent cowardice
and egoic opportunism that made very many join into
making insane ideas into national/dictatorial ideo-
logies, not just in Germany, but also in Russia,
China, Italy and Spain, just to name a few more out
of that same era.
George's "intent" FMPOV is to teach here in a solely
text-based context. If he has too little or no talent
to express himself here reasonably flawlessly, it IMHO
is counterproductive for him to posture here as an
'enlightened' teacher of God or Holy Spirit (unless of
course he want's to mock what he is teaching?).
Finally, what you see as my "mental" posturing FMPOV
is nothing other that my sincere POV, expressed as
well as I can in a foreign (English) Language. However,
I'm not at all surprised that you're less generous
towards my imperfect verbal/textual expression, and far
more generous with your own "posturing". Too funny,
since *all* physical actions and manifestations from a
'spiritual POV' are by nature nothing other than sym-
bolic. So seen ACIM itself can not avoid posturing and
being flawed, as there can FMPOV not really be anything
like a perfect/flawless symbolic or textual expression
of absolute truth :)
--expires

I find the original topic to be of genuine value and worthy of
discussion.  The sub plot topics have their place , but seem to
attempt to change the aim of the original post.  Everyone has their
preferred way to communicate.  And I'm not discussing that in this
thread since the original topic has the greater payoff for a wider
audience.
That's all.
John Radgosky

Hi John, I said what I believe the Atonement is. I had a real hard
time figuring it out as it took me 30 years of ACIM application to
finally understand what I believe to be true.
That's not to say I'm right and that i won't change my mind if an idea
comes along that makes more sense to me. I would like to open the
topic up to some discussion on the Atonement. What do the others of
you believe it means and why?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

AT ONE ment

john radgosky

[eluq]

Howdy George,

Clarify what I see as inconsistency in your logic below. If it is all good
there can't be "insane imaginings" can there? The separation idea spawned
the following idea -
"The world you perceive is a world of separation. Perhaps you are willing
to accept even death to deny your Father. Yet He would not have it so, and
so it is not so. You still cannot will against Him, and that is why you
have no control over the world you made. It is not a world of will because
it is governed by the desire to be unlike God, and this desire is not will.
The world you made is therefore totally chaotic, governed by arbitrary and
senseless "laws," and without meaning of any kind. For it is made out of
what you do not want, projected from your mind because you are afraid of it.
Yet this world is only in the mind of its maker, along with his real
salvation. Do not believe it is outside of yourself, for only by
recognizing where it is will you gain control over it. For you do have
control over your mind, since the mind is the mechanism of decision.

How I intrepret what you are saying is that - upon control of the mind you
perceive a perfect world -- is that fair to say?? It seems control of the
mind or the miracle process establishes "you dream a dream" and there is
only perfection but the dream is a desire to be unlike God so there is no
perfection in it, there is only perfection in the process of giving up
belief or probably more accurately giving up the desire to remember the
thought of separation.

When the mind is healed it will no longer remember the projection of the
impossible idea of a will other than God's. We might be saying the same
thing, kind of hard to discuss because of levels that are absolutely
exclusive of each other and irreconcilable.

The "everything working for good" is the perfection. There would be no need
to work for good if it was already perfect. The process of giving up the
belief in imperfection is perfect. The idea of imperfection isn't perfect.

The happening for a reason and the reasons are always good comes about by
the HS reinterpretation of perception it isn't inherent in the false belief.

Fun subject regardless

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

[george]

Post by eluq
Howdy George,
Clarify what I see as inconsistency in your logic below.  If it is all good
there can't be "insane imaginings" can there?

The insane imaginings are when I forget that everything works for good
and choose to see what isn't really there, hate, evil, conflict. The
Atonement is my path back to remembering what has always been true,
that only love exists and I can perceive it now in the same events,
instead of my insane imaginings.


 The separation idea spawned

Post by eluq
the following idea -
"The world you perceive is a world of separation.  Perhaps you are willing
to accept even death to deny your Father.  Yet He would not have it so, and
so it is not so.  You still cannot will against Him, and that is why you
have no control over the world you made.  It is not a world of will because
it is governed by the desire to be unlike God, and this desire is not will.
The world you made is therefore totally chaotic, governed by arbitrary and
senseless "laws," and without meaning of any kind.  For it is made out of
what you do not want, projected from your mind because you are afraid of it.
Yet this world is only in the mind of its maker, along with his real
salvation.  Do not believe it is outside of yourself, for only by
recognizing where it is will you gain control over it. For you do have
control over your mind, since the mind is the mechanism of decision.
How I intrepret what you are saying is that - upon control of the mind you
perceive a perfect world -- is that fair to say??

Yes that is the idea and the road I'm on. Once the ego's voice has
been completely let go, everything here IS perfect.

 It seems control of the

Post by eluq
mind or the miracle process establishes "you dream a dream" and there is
only perfection but the dream is a desire to be unlike God so there is no
perfection in it, there is only perfection in the process of giving up
belief or probably more accurately giving up the desire to remember the
thought of separation.

Explain this more to me please as I'm not following. If EVERYTHING IS
good then why would the dream be different? It's not IMO and the
Atonement is my way to understand it's not and my way to understand my
true self as God created it.

Post by eluq
When the mind is healed it will no longer remember the projection of the
impossible idea of a will other than God's.  We might be saying the same
thing, kind of hard to discuss because of levels that are absolutely
exclusive of each other and irreconcilable.
The "everything working for good" is the perfection.  There would be no need
to work for good if it was already perfect.

The only ,"work" involved is choosing to see what is already there and
letting go of my insane imaginings that it's not here. It's not work
to my Spirit as it already knows, it IS work and requires effort from
me BECAUSE I still hear the lies of the ego I made, so the work or the
effort is to ignore what the ego says so I can KNOW what the Spirit
knows. The ego is the part of my mind screaming that everything is not
as it is supposed to be and that everything is not good but I don't
have to listen BECAUSE it's my mind. Accepting the Atonement and a
different perception solves this as I'm willing to let it be solved.


 The process of giving up the

Post by eluq
belief in imperfection is perfect.  The idea of imperfection isn't perfect.

It's the IDEA of imperfection that anything can be out of God's will
that the Atonement heals.

Post by eluq
The happening for a reason and the reasons are always good comes about by
the HS reinterpretation of perception it isn't inherent in the false belief.
Fun subject regardless

Great talking with you as always!

[expires]

On Tue Apr 20 2010 16:37:07 GMT+0200

Post by george

Post by eluq
Howdy George,
Clarify what I see as inconsistency in your logic below. If it is all good
there can't be "insane imaginings" can there?

The insane imaginings are when I forget that everything works for good
and choose to see what isn't really there, hate, evil, conflict. The
Atonement is my path back to remembering what has always been true,
that only love exists and I can perceive it now in the same events,
instead of my insane imaginings.
The separation idea spawned

Post by eluq
the following idea -
"The world you perceive is a world of separation. Perhaps you are willing
to accept even death to deny your Father. Yet He would not have it so, and
so it is not so. You still cannot will against Him, and that is why you
have no control over the world you made. It is not a world of will because
it is governed by the desire to be unlike God, and this desire is not will.
The world you made is therefore totally chaotic, governed by arbitrary and
senseless "laws," and without meaning of any kind. For it is made out of
what you do not want, projected from your mind because you are afraid of it.
Yet this world is only in the mind of its maker, along with his real
salvation. Do not believe it is outside of yourself, for only by
recognizing where it is will you gain control over it. For you do have
control over your mind, since the mind is the mechanism of decision.
How I intrepret what you are saying is that - upon control of the mind you
perceive a perfect world -- is that fair to say??

Yes that is the idea and the road I'm on. Once the ego's voice has
been completely let go, everything here IS perfect.
It seems control of the

Post by eluq
mind or the miracle process establishes "you dream a dream" and there is
only perfection but the dream is a desire to be unlike God so there is no
perfection in it, there is only perfection in the process of giving up
belief or probably more accurately giving up the desire to remember the
thought of separation.

Explain this more to me please as I'm not following. If EVERYTHING IS
good then why would the dream be different? It's not IMO and the
Atonement is my way to understand it's not and my way to understand my
true self as God created it.

Post by eluq
When the mind is healed it will no longer remember the projection of the
impossible idea of a will other than God's. We might be saying the same
thing, kind of hard to discuss because of levels that are absolutely
exclusive of each other and irreconcilable.
The "everything working for good" is the perfection. There would be no need
to work for good if it was already perfect.

The only ,"work" involved is choosing to see what is already there and
letting go of my insane imaginings that it's not here. It's not work
to my Spirit as it already knows, it IS work and requires effort from
me BECAUSE I still hear the lies of the ego I made, so the work or the
effort is to ignore what the ego says so I can KNOW what the Spirit
knows. The ego is the part of my mind screaming that everything is not
as it is supposed to be and that everything is not good but I don't
have to listen BECAUSE it's my mind. Accepting the Atonement and a
different perception solves this as I'm willing to let it be solved.
The process of giving up the

Post by eluq
belief in imperfection is perfect. The idea of imperfection isn't perfect.

It's the IDEA of imperfection that anything can be out of God's will
that the Atonement heals.

Post by eluq
The happening for a reason and the reasons are always good comes about by
the HS reinterpretation of perception it isn't inherent in the false belief.
Fun subject regardless

Great talking with you as always!

Well, YOU, who thinks YOU are "George" (or "expires"
for example), your fundamental mistake IMVHO is that
you overlook that the "whole George person" is just
as much a part of the illusion/dream as the insane
world the "whole George person" appears to have been
"born" in. Point is IMVHO, as long as YOU believe "I
am *in* George", George appears to be OUTSIDE of YOU.
To seek YOUR true self/home in the "ego's" fairytale
of the "George person" is nothing other than imprison-
ing yourself in the "fairytale of the George person"
(or "expires" person for example). If George's (or
expires') birth in an insane world is an illusion
/dream, then "George's or expires'" pending death
must be illusion/dream too. But illusions/dreams are
not life, and illusions/dreams do not die, they simply
end, are let go of. To love yourself/truth IMVHO does
not mean love the person you have fooled yourself into
appearing to be yourself. Therefore, IMVHO, to say or
believe "I am George/expires/..." is a mistake, and
only the "I am" is close enough to absolute truth to
be the useful "gateway"/fact to focus on, as much as
possible. It would however IMVHO be a mistake to hate
what one is not: George, "expires", the world or any-
thing at all. True love IMVHO *never* punisches,
attacks or rejects any call for love. However, calls
for love IMVHO do not come from persons, situations
or any form. Calls for love come from the dreamer(s).

--expires

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada-12.html
" Dhammapada
"
" 12. Yourself
"
" Love yourself and watch -
" Today, tomorrow, always.
" First establish yourself in the way,
" Then teach,
" And so defeat sorrow.
" To straighten the crooked
" You must first do a harder thing -
" Straighten yourself.
" You are your only master.
" Who else?
" [...]

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/dhammapada-13.html
" Dhammapada
"
" 13. The World
"
" Do not live in the world,
" In distraction and false dreams.
" Outside the dharma.
" Arise and watch.
" Follow the way joyfully
" Through this world and beyond.
" Follow the way of virtue.
" Follow the way joyfully
" Through this world and on beyond!
" For consider the world -
" A bubble, a mirage.
" See the world as it is,
" And death shall overlook you.
" Come, consider the world,
" A painted chariot for kings,
" A trap for fools.
" But he who sees goes free.
" [...]

[Mike]

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

George, there is nothing to figure out about the Atonement. It is
not a mystery to be unraveled. It is a gift to be accepted. Nothing
more.

[george]

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

  George, there is nothing to figure out about the Atonement.  It is
not a mystery to be unraveled.  It is a gift to be accepted.  Nothing
more.

I studied ACIM for 30 years reading the book cover to cover more than
5 times, I took all the lessons over the year and I still didn't
understand what the Atonement was till last year. Funny but true. Now
I understand it's nothing more than being willing to accept the Holy
Spirit's loving perception and let go of the ego's hateful one.

[mr bill]

Post by george
It took 30 years of applying ACIM to finally understand that the
Atonement, or process of forgiveness IS the letting go of the Ego's
perception of injustice and accepting the Holy Spirit's perception
that everything happens for a reason and the reasons are ALWAYS good.
The Atonement is not hard to understand, has no mystery to it and I
can completely understand it. Yet it took me 30 years of dedicated
ACIM application and study to finally understand the truth. That the
Atonement and God's plan of salvation IS easy to understand and apply
because it makes no exceptions ever. There is no line and never has
been that says, well this form of evil is bad. The point of the
Atonement is, there IS no evil and never has been except in my insane
imaginings. Everything works for good and there is never a real reason
to condemn or conflict with anyone for any reason. Once I finally
understood how easy it is and that it is always only a choice, it all
made sense to me.

pinhead
it took you thirty years to come up with that?
you are dumber than i thought
:)