Putting it together

[Sidney Lambe]

Many neo-pagans base their magical workings on the premise that
there are four magical Elements, called Earth, Air, Fire and
Water. With a possible fifth Element known as Aether or Spirit.
This understanding provides you with a great base to work from.

This understanding provides you with absolute nothing but some
worthless, romantic concepts to play with and impress the
ignorant with by going on about them ont the Internet.

That interpretation of some symbols found on ancient media of
various kinds was done by scholars who have no idea what magick
is or dows. They don't believe it exists.

The real elements of magick are ideation, iimagination, emotion,
intent, and desire. That's what those symbols really meant.

Do ask Miss Fluffy Bunny here to offer some evidence that knowing
about those supposed elements are any more effective than an
Official Harry Potter Magic Wand.

She cannot.

And because her first statement about magick is pure crap,
parroted from some book or website, the rest of this document is
utterly worthless.

But that won't stop her from playing the role.

If the romantic woo-woo most neo-pagans call "magick" worked,
they'd rule the world.

[delete]

[Daniel Baumgarten]

Post by Sidney Lambe

Many neo-pagans base their magical workings on the premise that
there are four magical Elements, called Earth, Air, Fire and
Water. With a possible fifth Element known as Aether or Spirit.
This understanding provides you with a great base to work from.

This understanding provides you with absolute nothing but some
worthless, romantic concepts to play with and impress the
ignorant with by going on about them ont the Internet.
That interpretation of some symbols found on ancient media of
various kinds was done by scholars who have no idea what magick
is or dows. They don't believe it exists.

The four elements are most commonly taken from Plato's Timaeus (this is
predated by the writings of Empedocles). Plato was an initiate of the
Eleusinian mysteries. Here is what he writes:

Now that which is created is of necessity corporeal, and
also visible and tangible. And nothing is visible where
there is no fire, or tangible which has no solidity, and
nothing is solid without earth. Wherefore also God in the
beginning of creation made the body of the universe to
consist of fire and earth. But two things cannot be rightly
put together without a third; there must be some bond of
union between them. And the fairest bond is that which makes
the most complete fusion of itself and the things which it
combines; and proportion is best adapted to effect such a
union. For whenever in any three numbers, whether cube or
square, there is a mean, which is to the last term what the
first term is to it; and again, when the mean is to the
first term as the last term is to the mean-then the mean
becoming first and last, and the first and last both
becoming means, they will all of them of necessity come to
be the same, and having become the same with one another
will be all one. If the universal frame had been created a
surface only and having no depth, a single mean would have
sufficed to bind together itself and the other terms; but
now, as the world must be solid, and solid bodies are always
compacted not by one mean but by two, God placed water and
air in the mean between fire and earth, and made them to
have the same proportion so far as was possible (as fire is
to air so is air to water, and as air is to water so is
water to earth); and thus he bound and put together a
visible and tangible heaven. And for these reasons, and out
of such elements which are in number four, the body of the
world was created, and it was harmonised by proportion, and
therefore has the spirit of friendship; and having been
reconciled to itself, it was indissoluble by the hand of any
other than the framer.

The full text of Timaeus can be found here:
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Daniel Baumgarten

Post by Sidney Lambe

Many neo-pagans base their magical workings on the premise that
there are four magical Elements, called Earth, Air, Fire and
Water. With a possible fifth Element known as Aether or Spirit.
This understanding provides you with a great base to work from.

This understanding provides you with absolute nothing but some
worthless, romantic concepts to play with and impress the
ignorant with by going on about them ont the Internet.
That interpretation of some symbols found on ancient media of
various kinds was done by scholars who have no idea what magick
is or dows. They don't believe it exists.

The four elements are most commonly taken from Plato's Timaeus
(this is

Oh yeh. The well-known magician, Plato.

I'm so glad that you have finally learned how to use google.

Now, if you would figure out that a website or book is not
necessarily about magick because it says it is, you might get
someplace.

Right now, you are doing the only thing you can do: parrot
from some document somewhere and pretend that this makes you a
magician.

[delete]

[Daniel Baumgarten]

Post by Sidney Lambe
Oh yeh. The well-known magician, Plato.

Indeed. As I said, he was an initiate of the Eleusinian mysteries, an
ancestor of everything we call "magick."

Post by Sidney Lambe
Now, if you would figure out that a website or book is not
necessarily about magick because it says it is, you might get
someplace.

Every writer in the in the Western mystery tradition since Plato has
been influenced by Plato. So if Plato is irrelevant to the concept of
magic, then so is virtually everything ever written about it, including
your beloved works of Jane Roberts.

Post by Sidney Lambe
Right now, you are doing the only thing you can do: parrot
from some document somewhere and pretend that this makes you a
magician.

I am just a humble philosophy student. I am not a magician. Obviously,
someone who reads philosophy all the time has some business hanging
around a newsgroup where everyone is obsessed with metaphysics. There
are a few who are here seemingly because they are compelled by a mental
illness. This is also very interesting to me. At any rate, not everyone
who is interested in magic is a practitioner.

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Daniel Baumgarten

Post by Sidney Lambe
Oh yeh. The well-known magician, Plato.

Indeed. As I said

[delete]

I don't give a fuck what yet another phony magician thinks
about anything.

I've read a bunch of your posts at googlegroups.

You couldn't make water wet with the superstitious nonsense
you call "magick".

All you can do is run your mouth all day long with the help of
google.

I do not waste my time debating with ignorant fucks like you.

If you had the brains of a rock, you would have figured th9is
\out by now.

[Daniel Baumgarten]

Post by Sidney Lambe

Post by Daniel Baumgarten

Post by Sidney Lambe
Oh yeh. The well-known magician, Plato.

Indeed. As I said

I don't give a fuck what yet another phony magician thinks
about anything.

Then why are you reading alt.magick?

Post by Sidney Lambe
I've read a bunch of your posts at googlegroups.

You flatter me all the time, Sidney Lambe/Alan Connor.

Post by Sidney Lambe
I do not waste my time debating with ignorant fucks like you.

That's all you ever do. You blow a lot of hot air tauting your alleged
superiority to a number of so-called "ignorant fucks," over and over
again, compulsively. It never stops. What dragon are you trying to slay,
I wonder?

Post by Sidney Lambe
If you had the brains of a rock, you would have figured th9is
\out by now.

I wouldn't be insulted by that even if it made any sense. Please, share
some more of your witticisms. Between you and the Stanley Cup, my
evening is made.

[Sidney Lambe]

On alt.religion.wicca, Daniel Baumgarten <***@sdf.org> wrote:
[delete]

Do you like my new bitch filter, "Daniel"?

It allows me to call up a response with the body deleted, so that
Idon't have to see the ignorant rantings of fools like you.

Here's your clue for the decade: Just because billions of people
believe that something is true with all their hearts, does not
mean that it is.

But I do understand your defensiveness about your Darwinist
religion. All religious fanatics believe that their beliefs are
facts. It goes with the territory. And they don't like what they
think of as facts to be questioned.

They do not like thinking for themselves.

I do not read the replies of this pompous fool. Dumb parrots with
fat heads are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

[bosco]

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

[Tom]

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
trolling sent through them. Here's a good list to filter out:

aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org

Others will be added as they appear.

No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

[Bassos]

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.

At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.

Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.

Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

[Tom]

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.
At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.
Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.
Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

I really do hope you are having the best day EVAAAAAR today! I love
you incredibly hard! So hard it hurts! It hurts REAL BAD! But it also
hurts REEEEEAL GOOD!

Oh yes, blow me.

[Bassos]

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.
At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.
Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.
Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

I really do hope you are having the best day EVAAAAAR today! I love
you incredibly hard! So hard it hurts! It hurts REAL BAD! But it also
hurts REEEEEAL GOOD!
Oh yes, blow me.

You are not even trying.

May you live in interesting times, and have many employees.

[Tom]

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.
At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.
Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.
Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

I really do hope you are having the best day EVAAAAAR today! I love
you incredibly hard! So hard it hurts! It hurts REAL BAD! But it also
hurts REEEEEAL GOOD!
Oh yes, blow me.

You are not even trying.
May you live in interesting times, and have many employees.

I do. You think a great mind like me has to toil for wealth?

[Bassos]

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.
At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.
Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.
Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

I really do hope you are having the best day EVAAAAAR today! I love
you incredibly hard! So hard it hurts! It hurts REAL BAD! But it also
hurts REEEEEAL GOOD!
Oh yes, blow me.

You are not even trying.
May you live in interesting times, and have many employees.

I do. You think a great mind like me has to toil for wealth?

Heh.
Great mind that can only play by impersonating other people.

Yeah, right.

[Tom]

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by Bassos

Post by Tom

Post by bosco

Post by Sidney Lambe
[delete]
[delete] are a dime-a-dozen on the Internet.

Why bother caring what people believe or don't beleive? Most people
like put and take players in the stock market are on the wrong side of
the money. That will never change.

I also block as many posts as possible from anonymous remailers, feeds
and other such services due to the huge amount of forgeries and other
aioe.org
alt.net [Altopia]
dizum.com
ecn.org
frell.theremailer.net
mixmaster.*
rip.ax.lt
tioat.net
usenet4all.se
x-privat.org
Others will be added as they appear.
No ad, CD, commercial, cripple, demo, nag, share, spy, time-limited,
trial or web wares OR warez for me, please.

Everyone already knows you fake posts, but you lack evolution in your style.
At least go for some general overal message.
That might make your work a bit funny.
Oh, and feel free to attempt to emulate me aswell, i kinda feel left out
here.
Would be quite interesting to interact with you if you could pull of a
decent me.
(many have tried, none will admit to their failure)

I really do hope you are having the best day EVAAAAAR today! I love
you incredibly hard! So hard it hurts! It hurts REAL BAD! But it also
hurts REEEEEAL GOOD!
Oh yes, blow me.

You are not even trying.
May you live in interesting times, and have many employees.

I do. You think a great mind like me has to toil for wealth?

Heh.
Great mind that can only play by impersonating other people.
Yeah, right.

What do you know of great minds when yours is hinged in feebleness and
luxuriates in the ass of a donkey?

I tire of you.

Get a life.

[Tom]

Post by Daniel Baumgarten
I am just a humble philosophy student. I am not a magician. Obviously,
someone who reads philosophy all the time has some business hanging
around a newsgroup where everyone is obsessed with metaphysics. There
are a few who are here seemingly because they are compelled by a mental
illness. This is also very interesting to me. At any rate, not everyone
who is interested in magic is a practitioner.

This is quite correct. A student of magick (whether you choose to
spell it in the archaic way or not) is not necessarily a self-
described practitioner of magick, nor is a self-described practitioner
of magick necessarily a student of it.

Magick is a very wide-ranging subject, with aspects of history,
philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, anthropology, poetry,
mysticism and many other viewpoints. Its applications in the world
are equally varied. The notion that magick is separate from any of
the sciences, arts, or humanities is a relatively modern one. For
most of its history, no one bothered to make any such distinctions at
all.

"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of
Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by
a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so
that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and
admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are
profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their
skill, know how to anticipate an effort, the which to the vulgar shall
seem to be a miracle." -- The Lemegeton

So far, in my very careful reading of Jane Roberts' "The Nature of
Personal Reality", the entity known as "Seth" never described himself
as a "magician" nor did he call what he was trying to teach "magic".

[Daniel Baumgarten]

Post by Tom
Magick is a very wide-ranging subject, with aspects of history,
philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology, anthropology, poetry,
mysticism and many other viewpoints. Its applications in the world
are equally varied. The notion that magick is separate from any of
the sciences, arts, or humanities is a relatively modern one. For
most of its history, no one bothered to make any such distinctions at
all.

"The Story of Alchemy and the Beginnings of Chemistry" by M.M. Pattison
Muir is an eye opener for anyone who doesn't understand the relationship
between magic and the various sciences. It is difficult for anyone with
a modern mentality to understand how the earliest forms of science were
conceived within a social order that was presumed to mirror the heavens.
But this is what is meant by the aphorism "as above, so below," that
every entity has a significance tying it in some way to every other
entity; and that we could apprehend and formulate this significance was
a key axiom of alchemy. This is not quite what modern chemistry attempts
to do, but we can trace the paradigm back through increasingly
generalized forms to the original, wherein a theological understanding
of metals was sought.

Since the enchanted cosmic order has dissolved from our experience of
the world, we no longer have the context to understand things in that
way. We have to read the history of ideas to immerse ourselves in our
best reconstructions of old mentalities.

I love the passage from the Lemegeton, by the way, which you are so fond
of quoting.

Post by Tom
So far, in my very careful reading of Jane Roberts' "The Nature of
Personal Reality", the entity known as "Seth" never described himself
as a "magician" nor did he call what he was trying to teach "magic".

Interesting.

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Daniel Baumgarten

Post by Tom
Magick is a very wide-ranging subject, with aspects of
history, philosophy, physics, chemistry, psychology,
anthropology, poetry, mysticism and many other viewpoints.
Its applications in the world are equally varied. The notion
that magick is separate from any of the sciences, arts,
or humanities is a relatively modern one. For most of its
history, no one bothered to make any such distinctions at all.

"The Story of Alchemy and the Beginnings of Chemistry"
M.M. Pattison Muir is an eye opener for anyone who doesn't
understand the relationship between magic and the various
sciences.

He doesn't think magick is a serious science. And yet he expects
to be taken seriously by neo-pagans. Hard to believe that anyone
this stupid can operate a computer

No "Daniel". I will not be reading your reply to this.

Why? Because you don't know anything worth knowing and you
couldn't harm a fly. I don't have to read your ignorant and
egotisitical rants.

You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

[delete]

[HG]

Post by Sidney Lambe
You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

So *this* is why Sid crossposts everything.

He wants a bigger audience for his homosexual BDSM fantasies.


HG

[Searles O'Dubhain]

Post by HG

Post by Sidney Lambe
You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

So *this* is why Sid crossposts everything.
He wants a bigger audience for his homosexual BDSM fantasies.
                HG

I had a draft once but I plugged it up and things are now more
pleasant. BDSM and homosexuality do not "Sid" people. Only "Sid" does
that.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Searles O'Dubhain

Post by HG

Post by Sidney Lambe
You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

So *this* is why Sid crossposts everything.
He wants a bigger audience for his homosexual BDSM fantasies.
                HG

I had a draft once but I plugged it up and things are now more
pleasant. BDSM and homosexuality do not "Sid" people. Only "Sid" does
that.
Searles O'Dubhain

I am neither of those things , Liars.

Only pedophilia is a protected Wiccan custom.

[A B]

Post by Sidney Lambe

Post by Searles O'Dubhain

Post by HG

Post by Sidney Lambe
You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

So *this* is why Sid crossposts everything.
He wants a bigger audience for his homosexual BDSM fantasies.
                HG

I had a draft once but I plugged it up and things are now more
pleasant. BDSM and homosexuality do not "Sid" people. Only "Sid" does
that.
Searles O'Dubhain

I am neither of those things , Liars.
Only pedophilia is a protected Wiccan custom.

Cite.

[Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole]

Post by HG

Post by Sidney Lambe
You wear a gag when you are in my space and you take it off
only with my permission.

So *this* is why Sid crossposts everything.
He wants a bigger audience for his homosexual BDSM fantasies.
HG

SID is a HOMOPHOBE, PRETENDING to be ME, which is why he "STEALS" my
idea's.
Then like the Show either the History Channel or Discovery Channel who
ever aired a show on the Viking's called the "GALL'S" who "CAN PROVE
THEIR HISTORY!
Then made it their story claiming the "GALL'S" are the "BLONDES!
Only "GALL", talking anywhere is ME, and the GALL'S I see are the
"REDS"!
Sorta like a News Article I saw today about ANGLO's, being the
"EPONYMOUS"!
The part about the British Diplomat, talking about their Relationship
with ALASKA over OIL and PEBBLE MINE, being drowned out by a Song by
"MUSE" about REBELLION, said more about the article than they know!

[Searles O'Dubhain]

Post by Daniel Baumgarten
Interesting.
--
Daniel Baumgarten -http://dbaum.sdf.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System -http://sdf.org

Thanks to you and Tom for making this thread interesting. Modern
science would be a lot more in tune with Nature if scientists had not
lost their sense of magic.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Tom]

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
Thanks to you and Tom for making this thread interesting. Modern
science would be a lot more in tune with Nature if scientists had not
lost their sense of magic.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound
source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of
light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy,
beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of
elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our
emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts
of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or
Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are
somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both." - Carl Sagan

"“Nature holds the key to our aesthetic, intellectual, cognitive and
even spiritual satisfaction.” - Edward O. Wilson

"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally
opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful
with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a
noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to
work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in
it? This is how I answer when I am asked—as I am surprisingly often—
why I bother to get up in the mornings." - Richard Dawkins

"A poet once said, 'The whole universe is in a glass of wine.' We will
probably never know in what sense he meant it, for poets do not write
to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass of wine
closely enough we see the entire universe. There are the things of
physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates depending on the wind
and weather, the reflection in the glass; and our imagination adds
atoms. The glass is a distillation of the earth's rocks, and in its
composition we see the secrets of the universe's age, and the
evolution of stars. What strange array of chemicals are in the wine?
How did they come to be? There are the ferments, the enzymes, the
substrates, and the products. There in wine is found the great
generalization; all life is fermentation. Nobody can discover the
chemistry of wine without discovering, as did Louis Pasteur, the cause
of much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into
the consciousness that watches it! If our small minds, for some
convenience, divide this glass of wine, this universe, into parts --
physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on --
remember that nature does not know it! So let us put it all back
together, not forgetting ultimately what it is for. Let it give us one
more final pleasure; drink it and forget it all!" - Richard P. Feynman

[Searles O'Dubhain]

Post by Tom

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
Thanks to you and Tom for making this thread interesting. Modern
science would be a lot more in tune with Nature if scientists had not
lost their sense of magic.

"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound
source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of
light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy,
beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of
elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual. So are our
emotions in the presence of great art or music or literature, or acts
of exemplary selfless courage such as those of Mohandas Gandhi or
Martin Luther King, Jr. The notion that science and spirituality are
somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."  -  Carl Sagan
"“Nature holds the key to our aesthetic, intellectual, cognitive and
even spiritual satisfaction.” - Edward O. Wilson
"After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally
opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful
with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a
noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to
work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in
it? This is how I answer when I am asked—as I am surprisingly often—
why I bother to get up in the mornings." - Richard Dawkins
"A poet once said, 'The whole universe is in a glass of wine.' We will
probably never know in what sense he meant it, for poets do not write
to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass of wine
closely enough we see the entire universe. There are the things of
physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates depending on the wind
and weather, the reflection in the glass; and our imagination adds
atoms. The glass is a distillation of the earth's rocks, and in its
composition we see the secrets of the universe's age, and the
evolution of stars. What strange array of chemicals are in the wine?
How did they come to be? There are the ferments, the enzymes, the
substrates, and the products. There in wine is found the great
generalization; all life is fermentation. Nobody can discover the
chemistry of wine without discovering, as did Louis Pasteur, the cause
of much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into
the consciousness that watches it! If our small minds, for some
convenience, divide this glass of wine, this universe, into parts --
physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on --
remember that nature does not know it! So let us put it all back
together, not forgetting ultimately what it is for. Let it give us one
more final pleasure; drink it and forget it all!" - Richard P. Feynman

There are obviously some scientists who still see magic in science and
Nature but in general the corporate norm is taking over and the heart
is ripped out of most undertakings. At least that is what I see in the
science surrounding the places I've worked. IMO Feynman is better than
was Sagan in seeing the mystical in matters.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Tom]

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
There are obviously some scientists who still see magic in science and
Nature but in general the corporate norm is taking over and the heart
is ripped out of most undertakings. At least that is what I see in the
science surrounding the places I've worked. IMO Feynman is better than
was Sagan in seeing the mystical in matters.

The problem here is not science but corporations.

http://vodpod.com/watch/2722779-fela-zombie-december-7-2009-colbertnation-com

[Searles O'Dubhain]

Post by Tom

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
There are obviously some scientists who still see magic in science and
Nature but in general the corporate norm is taking over and the heart
is ripped out of most undertakings. At least that is what I see in the
science surrounding the places I've worked. IMO Feynman is better than
was Sagan in seeing the mystical in matters.

The problem here is not science but corporations.
http://vodpod.com/watch/2722779-fela-zombie-december-7-2009-colbertna...

Corporations are artificial persons created by a certain mindset
rooted in purely physical, worldly and financial matters. They are
Black Magic when they prey upon individuals and a sense of the
exceptional. Corporations are creations that often work outside of the
natural order promoting artificial growth at the expense of
Nature. .When they rule humans rather than humans governing them, the
worst of the worst occurs. Business schools should instruct their
mages in properly safeguarding their workings and in how to create
outcomes. I fear that consequences to others are ignored in favor of
local and temporary profits.

Searles O'Dubhain

[Tom]

Post by Searles O'Dubhain

Post by Tom

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
There are obviously some scientists who still see magic in science and
Nature but in general the corporate norm is taking over and the heart
is ripped out of most undertakings. At least that is what I see in the
science surrounding the places I've worked. IMO Feynman is better than
was Sagan in seeing the mystical in matters.

The problem here is not science but corporations.
http://vodpod.com/watch/2722779-fela-zombie-december-7-2009-colbertna...

Corporations are artificial persons created by a certain mindset
rooted in purely physical, worldly and financial matters. They are
Black Magic when they prey upon individuals and a sense of the
exceptional. Corporations are creations that often work outside of the
natural order promoting artificial growth at the expense of
Nature. .When they rule humans rather than humans governing them, the
worst of the worst occurs. Business schools should instruct their
mages in properly safeguarding their workings and in how to create
outcomes. I fear that consequences to others are ignored in favor of
local and temporary profits.
Searles O'Dubhain

With all seriousness, I just want you to know that anybody who does
something like that to me would be in line for retribution with
extreme prejudice and without the slightest hesitation. I don't stop
until I get what I want when I'm motivated to be on the trail of
anybody who stalks me. You see- I have, in reserve, my own tactics
for getting back at people, and many connections with people who will
do things for me (and I for them.)

[Daniel Baumgarten]

Post by Searles O'Dubhain
Thanks to you and Tom for making this thread interesting. Modern
science would be a lot more in tune with Nature if scientists had not
lost their sense of magic.

The point is not that scientists have lost their sense of magic; as Tom
suggests, they haven't done that. It's that the sense now lacks a
certain definition that once seemed certain, because that element of
mystery is no longer central to the terms in which we articulate
scientific ideas. Whereas in the past, mystery had more of the
foreground, as it were, which makes something like the theory of the
Forms, for example, more difficult for us to understand.

[Kaydon]

Post by Tom
"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of
Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by
a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so
that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and
admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are
profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their
skill, know how to anticipate an effort, the which to the vulgar shall
seem to be a miracle." -- The Lemegeton

Would you consider stage magic to fit this definition? Kind of like the
old rabbit from a hat routine? To the uninitiated, it certainly is
magic. It requires all kinds of knowledge about psychology or whatever.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology will seem like magic to the
unitiated", and all that.

<<3
xoxoxoxoo

[Tom]

Post by Kaydon

Post by Tom
"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of
Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by
a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so
that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and
admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are
profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their
skill, know how to anticipate an effort, the which to the vulgar shall
seem to be a miracle."  -- The Lemegeton

Would you consider stage magic to fit this definition? Kind of like the
old rabbit from a hat routine? To the uninitiated, it certainly is
magic. It requires all kinds of knowledge about psychology or whatever.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology will seem like magic to the
unitiated", and all that.

You're right. It does include stage magic. Magick is the production
of apparent wonders. It doesn't matter what purpose you have in mind,
whether it is the entertainment and amusement of children, the healing
of the sick, the creation of vast social evolutions, or the
transformation of self. If you make the seemingly impossible happen,
you're performing a magical operation.

It's often the case that the magician doesn't even think of himself or
herself as a magician. It's a perception of those who don't know how
the magical operation works. A self-described magician, and I'm
including myself here, is admitting that he himself isn't quite clear
on just how he's doing what he does, that it still seems very
mysterious.

[Tom]

Post by Kaydon

Post by Tom
"Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of
Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by
a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so
that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and
admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are
profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their
skill, know how to anticipate an effort, the which to the vulgar shall
seem to be a miracle." -- The Lemegeton

Would you consider stage magic to fit this definition? Kind of like the
old rabbit from a hat routine? To the uninitiated, it certainly is
magic. It requires all kinds of knowledge about psychology or whatever.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology will seem like magic to the
unitiated", and all that.
<<3
xoxoxoxoo

You must have a really sad life that you have to spend your time
irritating people anonymously. I'll bet you don't behave this way in
real life, because if you did you wouldn't live very long.

One of these days, you're going to piss off somebody the way you're
doing in this group, and they will track you down and take care of
your ass. It won't be me, but there are a lot of crazies out there
(worse than you) and you're playing Russian roulette. Keep it up, and
sooner or later you'll click on a live cylinder and will go away.

Truly, the term "fool" fits you like a glove.

[Tom]

Many neo-pagans base their magical workings on the premise that there
are four magical Elements, called =A0Earth, =A0Air, Fire and Water. With =

a

possible fifth Element known as Aether or Spirit.

Some even add to the 5 elements and subscribe numbers to them.
7 being
6 light
5 sound
4 gas
3 plasma
2 liquids
1 solids

Tarot tells you that the suit of Wands represents the element of Fire,
the source of creativity =A0and passion, =A0amongst many other things.

Others say that
Diamonds =3D Air
Spades =3D Fire
Cups =3D Water
Clubs =3D Earth
It was common for metaphysical writers to deliberately connect Wands
with Fire and Athames with Air.
Consider it a test. What happens when you set your wand on fire? It
turns to ash.
But even after I tell you the answer, you still must decide on your
own answer. The test is something you can't pass until you've
completely accepted the answer.

Swords represent Air and the intellect (mind).

Yet swords are forged in the fire. Go figure.

Next, you could take a look at Ceremonial Magic with it's Lesser
Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.
Raphael is located in the East and he represents Air (Swords - mind).

Yes, but do we have to mix Christian and Jewish tradition if we are
not Christians and Jews...
It is enough just to study and learn from it.

You could then skip to Kaballah to discover what lies there.

Don't skip it. Study it. You'll find similar things when studying
Kundalini. It is important to compare all metaphysical texts.

When these folks realize that just because a book or website says
it's about magick, doesn't mean it is, they might get a handle on
magick.
Those supposed "elements" of magick they are prattling about
above are utterly useless. They can't do anything with them
except talk about them.

At least you can fuck your Mom in the nose and, yes, this has nothing
to do with the universe.