Repost: Space-time *precedes* Separation (Lucid Approach)

[Lee Flynn]

Hi Pieter...

Isn't the very existence of time (and space and matter)
a consequence of the belief in separation?

I don't think so, Pieter.

Only our miscreative BELIEF about time & space is the
consequence of the belief in separation, imo. In the early part
of the Urtext, we learn some very important things about man,
who we're told can be healed of the belief in separation, while
yet experiencing time and space from the perspective of
"celestial order" (without miscreative error of thought).

109. Christ inspires all miracles, which are essentially
intercessions. They intercede for man's holiness, and make
him holy. They place man beyond the physical laws, and raise
him into the sphere of celestial order. In this order, man
IS perfect.

And the Separation is defined in ACIM as itself the consequence
of the mind's dissociative split, whereby man "deprived
himself" of (or forgot) his access to truth and wholeness.

299. Until the Separation, which is a better term than the
Fall, nothing was lacking. This meant that man had no needs
at all. If he had not deprived himself, he would never have
experienced them.

300. After the Separation, needs became the most powerful
source of motivation for human action....

304. Separation from God is the only lack he really needs to
correct. But his Separation would never have occurred if he
had not distorted his perception of truth, and thus
perceived himself as lacking.

The Author of this course has stated that he was "a man who
remembered the Soul," and thus overcame the twin miscreations
of fear and the belief in separation - both of which had
resulted from having 'forgotten' the wholeness of that Identity
as Soul.

712. .... I was a man who remembered the Soul and its
knowledge. .... I demonstrated both the powerlessness of the
body AND the power of the mind, by uniting MY will with that
of my Creator, which naturally remembered the Soul and its
own real purpose.

Part of the Soul's purpose is said to involve episodes across
physical creation, "as a learning experience in gaining Grace."
And procreative sex is said to provide "new homes for Souls."
(That hardly allows for considering the phenomenal world a
fundamental miscreation of the mind's belief in separation.)

230. Sex was intended as an instrument for physical creation
to enable Souls to embark on new chapters in their
experience, and thus improve their record....

231. It was an aid to the artist in his own creative
endeavors. As he made new homes for Souls and guided them
thru the period of their own developmental readiness, he
learned the role of the father himself. *The whole process
was set up as a learning experience in gaining Grace*.

236. Child of God, you were created to create the good, the
beautiful, and the holy. Do not lose sight of this.

Also, we're told that Atonement of the mind undoes (or heals)
the Separation, and provides man "the one defense against all
separation-mind errors." (para. 466)

465. For perfect effectiveness, the chalice of the Atonement
belongs at the center of the inner altar, where it *undoes
the Separation*, and restores the wholeness of the Spirit.
Before the Separation, the mind was invulnerable to fear,
because fear did not exist. Both the Separation and the fear
were MISCREATIONS of the mind, which have to be undone.
This is what the Bible means by the "Restoration of the Temple".
It DOES NOT mean the restoration of the building, but it
DOES mean the opening of the altar to receive the Atonement.

*466. This heals the Separation, and places *within man* the
one defense against all separation-mind errors which can
make him perfectly invulnerable.

If time & space were themselves the <result> of the
Separation, in what sense could humanity be other than a
miscreation? And how then would physical procreation be
required, that Souls be given homes for this "learning
experience to gain Grace"?

The 'lucid approach' to time and space clarifies that ACIM
describes a pristine version of the phenomenal world --
experienced without "separation-mind errors." The pristine
world may be thought of as a holy Creation-dream, whereby "all
living things" that God created be granted an episode in
manifest life -- which would never violate the celestial order
but for the onset of the mind's dissociative split, and
subsequent belief in separation.

IOW, there is nothing inherent in the mind's experience of the
phenomenal world that imposes the errant belief in separation.
Nor is the phenomenal world described as a <consequence of>
the Separation. Instead, the Separation is described as a
distorted <version> of the mind's encounter with the Creation-
dream that is the phenomenal world.

~ Lee

[edited]

[Pieter]

Hi Lee,

Good to see you here - and the lessons in iambic pentameter!
- My honest answer to your repost:

Nice try! :-)
IMO the Course should be considered as a whole;
The first chapters cannot be kept separate from the rest of it.

"Today we would remove all meaningless
and self-made gifts which we have placed upon
the holy altar where God's gifts belong.
[These] are the gifts which are our own in truth.
[These] are the gifts which we inherited
before time was, and which will still be ours
when time has passed into eternity." (From Lesson 104)


Peace,
Pieter.

Post by Lee Flynn
Hi Pieter...

Isn't the very existence of time (and space and matter)
a consequence of the belief in separation?

I don't think so, Pieter.
Only our miscreative BELIEF about time & space is the
consequence of the belief in separation, imo. In the early part
of the Urtext, we learn some very important things about man,
who we're told can be healed of the belief in separation, while
yet experiencing time and space from the perspective of
"celestial order" (without miscreative error of thought).
109. Christ inspires all miracles, which are essentially
intercessions. They intercede for man's holiness, and make
him holy. They place man beyond the physical laws, and raise
him into the sphere of celestial order. In this order, man
IS perfect.
And the Separation is defined in ACIM as itself the consequence
of the mind's dissociative split, whereby man "deprived
himself" of (or forgot) his access to truth and wholeness.
299. Until the Separation, which is a better term than the
Fall, nothing was lacking. This meant that man had no needs
at all. If he had not deprived himself, he would never have
experienced them.
300. After the Separation, needs became the most powerful
source of motivation for human action....
304. Separation from God is the only lack he really needs to
correct. But his Separation would never have occurred if he
had not distorted his perception of truth, and thus
perceived himself as lacking.
The Author of this course has stated that he was "a man who
remembered the Soul," and thus overcame the twin miscreations
of fear and the belief in separation - both of which had
resulted from having 'forgotten' the wholeness of that Identity
as Soul.
712. .... I was a man who remembered the Soul and its
knowledge. .... I demonstrated both the powerlessness of the
body AND the power of the mind, by uniting MY will with that
of my Creator, which naturally remembered the Soul and its
own real purpose.
Part of the Soul's purpose is said to involve episodes across
physical creation, "as a learning experience in gaining Grace."
And procreative sex is said to provide "new homes for Souls."
(That hardly allows for considering the phenomenal world a
fundamental miscreation of the mind's belief in separation.)
230. Sex was intended as an instrument for physical creation
to enable Souls to embark on new chapters in their
experience, and thus improve their record....
231. It was an aid to the artist in his own creative
endeavors. As he made new homes for Souls and guided them
thru the period of their own developmental readiness, he
learned the role of the father himself. *The whole process
was set up as a learning experience in gaining Grace*.
236. Child of God, you were created to create the good, the
beautiful, and the holy. Do not lose sight of this.
Also, we're told that Atonement of the mind undoes (or heals)
the Separation, and provides man "the one defense against all
separation-mind errors." (para. 466)
465. For perfect effectiveness, the chalice of the Atonement
belongs at the center of the inner altar, where it *undoes
the Separation*, and restores the wholeness of the Spirit.
Before the Separation, the mind was invulnerable to fear,
because fear did not exist. Both the Separation and the fear
were MISCREATIONS of the mind, which have to be undone.
This is what the Bible means by the "Restoration of the Temple".
It DOES NOT mean the restoration of the building, but it
DOES mean the opening of the altar to receive the Atonement.
*466. This heals the Separation, and places *within man* the
one defense against all separation-mind errors which can
make him perfectly invulnerable.
If time & space were themselves the <result> of the
Separation, in what sense could humanity be other than a
miscreation? And how then would physical procreation be
required, that Souls be given homes for this "learning
experience to gain Grace"?
The 'lucid approach' to time and space clarifies that ACIM
describes a pristine version of the phenomenal world --
experienced without "separation-mind errors." The pristine
world may be thought of as a holy Creation-dream, whereby "all
living things" that God created be granted an episode in
manifest life -- which would never violate the celestial order
but for the onset of the mind's dissociative split, and
subsequent belief in separation.
IOW, there is nothing inherent in the mind's experience of the
phenomenal world that imposes the errant belief in separation.
Nor is the phenomenal world described as a <consequence of>
the Separation. Instead, the Separation is described as a
distorted <version> of the mind's encounter with the Creation-
dream that is the phenomenal world.
~ Lee
[edited]

[Lee Flynn]

Hi there Pieter,

Glad to see you too, brother. Wasn't sure you were still
around.

Post by Pieter
Hi Lee,
Good to see you here - and the lessons in iambic pentameter!
Nice try! :-)
IMO the Course should be considered as a whole;
The first chapters cannot be kept separate from the rest of it.
"Today we would remove all meaningless
and self-made gifts which we have placed upon
the holy altar where God's gifts belong.
[These] are the gifts which are our own in truth.
[These] are the gifts which we inherited
before time was, and which will still be ours
when time has passed into eternity." (From Lesson 104)

As you probably recall, I have come to understand that
the Course regularly speaks of time, the world, and the body
in a way that refers to the ego's distorted take on those
aspects of its experience. Timelessness and eternity are
what I find is described as the result of the corrected
experience of time (thus time passess into eternity), and
boundlessness is the corrected experience of space.

And so your quote continues with,

[These] are the gifts which are within us now,
for they are timeless. And we need not wait
to have them. They belong to us today.

The "meaningless and self-made gifts" in your quote above
refers to the mistaken values and associations that have
arisen from the body-identified thought system of ego, imo,
and "God's gifts" speak to the joy and peace that arise with
the the corrected relationship to self, world and other that
the Course's curriculum offers.

Unless I believe that time has indeed come to circumvent
eternity, I must allow that even my experience of time/space
can be profoundly altered so that the ego's concept of both
are released, and the true nature of my mind and identity
is able to cast this earthly realm in ways that align with its
own timeless/boundless attributes.

That's how I understand that we are able to escape the
"world of dreams" spoken of later in the lesson you quote:

Then lay aside the conflicts of the world
which offer other gifts and other goals
made of illusions, witnessed to by them,
and sought for only in a world of dreams.

While I mediate my experience of this world through the
values and constructs that arise from the ego's distorted
thought system of separation and body-identification,
I slumber to the abiding truth of both self and world,
and remain alienated and ensnared within "a world of
dreams."

Post by Pieter
Peace,
Pieter.

Same your way, Pieter. All the best to you and your wife,

~ Lee

Post by Pieter

Post by Lee Flynn
Hi Pieter...

Isn't the very existence of time (and space and matter)
a consequence of the belief in separation?

I don't think so, Pieter.
Only our miscreative BELIEF about time & space is the
consequence of the belief in separation, imo. In the early part
of the Urtext, we learn some very important things about man,
who we're told can be healed of the belief in separation, while
yet experiencing time and space from the perspective of
"celestial order" (without miscreative error of thought).
109. Christ inspires all miracles, which are essentially
intercessions. They intercede for man's holiness, and make
him holy. They place man beyond the physical laws, and raise
him into the sphere of celestial order. In this order, man
IS perfect.
And the Separation is defined in ACIM as itself the consequence
of the mind's dissociative split, whereby man "deprived
himself" of (or forgot) his access to truth and wholeness.
299. Until the Separation, which is a better term than the
Fall, nothing was lacking. This meant that man had no needs
at all. If he had not deprived himself, he would never have
experienced them.
300. After the Separation, needs became the most powerful
source of motivation for human action....
304. Separation from God is the only lack he really needs to
correct. But his Separation would never have occurred if he
had not distorted his perception of truth, and thus
perceived himself as lacking.
The Author of this course has stated that he was "a man who
remembered the Soul," and thus overcame the twin miscreations
of fear and the belief in separation - both of which had
resulted from having 'forgotten' the wholeness of that Identity
as Soul.
712. .... I was a man who remembered the Soul and its
knowledge. .... I demonstrated both the powerlessness of the
body AND the power of the mind, by uniting MY will with that
of my Creator, which naturally remembered the Soul and its
own real purpose.
Part of the Soul's purpose is said to involve episodes across
physical creation, "as a learning experience in gaining Grace."
And procreative sex is said to provide "new homes for Souls."
(That hardly allows for considering the phenomenal world a
fundamental miscreation of the mind's belief in separation.)
230. Sex was intended as an instrument for physical creation
to enable Souls to embark on new chapters in their
experience, and thus improve their record....
231. It was an aid to the artist in his own creative
endeavors. As he made new homes for Souls and guided them
thru the period of their own developmental readiness, he
learned the role of the father himself. *The whole process
was set up as a learning experience in gaining Grace*.
236. Child of God, you were created to create the good, the
beautiful, and the holy. Do not lose sight of this.
Also, we're told that Atonement of the mind undoes (or heals)
the Separation, and provides man "the one defense against all
separation-mind errors." (para. 466)
465. For perfect effectiveness, the chalice of the Atonement
belongs at the center of the inner altar, where it *undoes
the Separation*, and restores the wholeness of the Spirit.
Before the Separation, the mind was invulnerable to fear,
because fear did not exist. Both the Separation and the fear
were MISCREATIONS of the mind, which have to be undone.
This is what the Bible means by the "Restoration of the Temple".
It DOES NOT mean the restoration of the building, but it
DOES mean the opening of the altar to receive the Atonement.
*466. This heals the Separation, and places *within man* the
one defense against all separation-mind errors which can
make him perfectly invulnerable.
If time & space were themselves the <result> of the
Separation, in what sense could humanity be other than a
miscreation? And how then would physical procreation be
required, that Souls be given homes for this "learning
experience to gain Grace"?
The 'lucid approach' to time and space clarifies that ACIM
describes a pristine version of the phenomenal world --
experienced without "separation-mind errors." The pristine
world may be thought of as a holy Creation-dream, whereby "all
living things" that God created be granted an episode in
manifest life -- which would never violate the celestial order
but for the onset of the mind's dissociative split, and
subsequent belief in separation.
IOW, there is nothing inherent in the mind's experience of the
phenomenal world that imposes the errant belief in separation.
Nor is the phenomenal world described as a <consequence of>
the Separation. Instead, the Separation is described as a
distorted <version> of the mind's encounter with the Creation-
dream that is the phenomenal world.
~ Lee
[edited]

[Pieter]

- What about this:

"You see the flesh or recognize the Spirit.
There is no compromise between the two.
If one is real the other must be false,
for what is real denies its opposite.
There is no choice in vision but this one."
('Recognizing the Spirit' in chapter 31)

[Sidney Lambe]

Post by Pieter
"You see the flesh or recognize the Spirit.
There is no compromise between the two.
If one is real the other must be false,
for what is real denies its opposite.
There is no choice in vision but this one."
('Recognizing the Spirit' in chapter 31)

The body is the soul in chemical clothes. The spirit becomes
flesh. Energy changes form. Continuity is maintained; the
seperation is an illusion, but a very practical illusion.

The nature of this reality is not an accident. There are
no accidents.

To deny the spirituality of the flesh is to deny God.

Nature _is_ supernatural. Everthing is Blessed. Everything is
Divine. There is no outside.

[David Thomson]

Hi Pieter,

Post by Pieter
"You see the flesh or recognize the Spirit.
There is no compromise between the two.
If one is real the other must be false,
for what is real denies its opposite.
There is no choice in vision but this one."
('Recognizing the Spirit' in chapter 31)

That is a great quote. It speaks to the reciprocal nature of physical and non-material reality. This is exactly why science denies the existence of the spirit.

However, it is still short on reality. The book of the Course is written in the physical form and accessible to the flesh only. Furthermore, all of physical existence is tied to its spiritual counterpart. That is why the physical world can appear as a reality to the mind in the first place.

To practice the Course to perfection is to literally leave the perception of the physical world behind and accept the spiritual view only. In the physical world, this is known as death.

I can agree with everything Sidney said and still see the truth of the Course. And even the Course states that the purpose of time is to undo time. The purpose of the world is to undo the world. There is nothing contrary to the Course in living a long and worldly life.

The tie between the two worlds is what the Course calls the Holy Instant. The Holy Instant weaves in and out of perception like a golden thread. When we finally cross over we realize the thread was never broken, but from the perspective of the world we see the appearance of stitches sometimes being visible and then invisible.

The Course does not teach us to immediately throw away all magic beliefs. It teaches us to enter the Holy Instant with increasing frequency. And then when the time is right, when it is time to leave this world for the last time, our mind merges effortlessly with God's full awareness.

It is possible that a mind can be fully with God and also among the physical world, but it is not something we are likely to witness. The manifestation of such a mind is truly extraordinary and extremely rare. By its nature, such a mind would only manifest at a time when many minds are ready to leave this world at the same time. There would be no other purpose for such a mind to manifest.

I have studied many other religions since studying the Course in 1980. I have been very impressed with Paganism and Wicca. When practiced with a pure heart, these religions are quite useful for maintaining a long, healthy, and happy life. Students of the Course can thus extend their usefulness in this world by the proper application of magic.

The Course can easily coexist with many other religions even though it speaks of a reality that transcends the physical world.

Dave